Clickers, Frams, and E-cores, oh my (pics)
- Thread starter lubeowner
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Hey Lubeowner...
"Thanks for the kind words. I have taken a lot of time away from other things that I need to be doing to analyze these things. Yesterday we had a chance to cut a random selection of 30 filters open. I really hate to say this but lots of Champion filters had a problem with the media."
You have simply been doing homework on the products that you have the option to use. Looks like you have found out that they are not living up to expectations. You have also been giving us what looks like an honest "here's what I'm seeing" point of view..
You would be doing a dis-service to your customers by continuing use of a product that you don't believe is a good product.
One thing we have all learned here is that we need to keep a check on all the products that we use, because they can change on us without warning...we just have to keep our eyes (and minds) open to change...sometimes good, sometimes bad.
Rando
"Thanks for the kind words. I have taken a lot of time away from other things that I need to be doing to analyze these things. Yesterday we had a chance to cut a random selection of 30 filters open. I really hate to say this but lots of Champion filters had a problem with the media."
You have simply been doing homework on the products that you have the option to use. Looks like you have found out that they are not living up to expectations. You have also been giving us what looks like an honest "here's what I'm seeing" point of view..
You would be doing a dis-service to your customers by continuing use of a product that you don't believe is a good product.
One thing we have all learned here is that we need to keep a check on all the products that we use, because they can change on us without warning...we just have to keep our eyes (and minds) open to change...sometimes good, sometimes bad.
Rando
Is it possible to look into the Champion-made filter and identify the clicker valve?
Ken
[ March 20, 2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
Ken
[ March 20, 2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]
Yes...look into the filter and you'll see the big center hole surrounded by the smaller ones on the top of the filter endplate.
Only 800 miles on the V8A I was running. Cut it open and found the filter media spread wide in places, kind of like in the pictures posted above, but the media was relatively clean in only 800 miles.
Lot of semi-liquid sludge in the filter folds, as I had in the Auto Rx rinse on previous OCI. Problem is, I found a fair amount of the sludge bits in the bottom of the can--proof enough to me that I don't ever want another dome end bypass.
Oh yeah, I looked at that clicker valve and can't figure that it even works. Must take an awful lot of pressure to move that thing. Maybe that is why the filter media is badly splayed on these type filters?
Well i've been busy this weekend so i'll catch up on a few things.
First..i'm certainly not disputing what lubeowner is finding when he cuts open filters.
Where I think he needs to think a little harder is what would cause a filter to look like it does after he cuts it open. He's found 1 filter where the pleat didn't seat properly in the end cap. Yet he's gone bang on about the clicker valves not working properly and laying the blame there.
There are those in here who want to talk about the laboratory testing versus real world. Well in order to design a new filter the lab may use cadcam but that is but part of the first step. There are "models" built and tested to "specs". But long before any new filter design is produced for the market ( be it new media or an E-core) there is lot's of "real world" testing. Champ had over a million miles of testing on the E-core before allowing it to go to market. It's the same thing they are doing right now with Mobil with the new extended life filter they will be selling soon. Why can't you buy the new Mobil filter? Because they haven't made up their minds which option Champ has designed to actualy sell to the public.
The testing is not done on brand new factory engines. It is done on real world cars. new and old. Cold weather and hot. Dusty conditions and mountainous.
Second..Private label accounts don't tell Champ what specs to build the filters to.
Champ has the engine manufacturers specs and they are the ones who know what "options" they can provide and manufacture for individual private label accounts.
Only with OEM engine business does Champ work with their engineers to provide a filter to their specs. Sometimes the spec is unrealistic for production and the OEM revise their "specs".
Third..profits. I'm glad everyone seems to think Champ is rolling in the dough because of making the E-core filter and it's "cheaper" than the standard metal endcap and by-pass valve design.
Nothing could be further from the truth. It is a more expensive filter to make. Just because retail pricing hasn't gone up, doesn't mean it is a cheaper filter.
This is why competitors at this point in time either aren't making their own metal free element or have delayed doing one themselves. They know the score when it comes to a complete new production line and design.
Fourth: I've said before I will answer questions about filters in general. I've "defended" other brands in previous threads. It's just that the E-core design is like politics in this forum at the moment..
Fifth: I happen to sell Mann, M.P.Filtri, and Mahle filters amoungts other brands. Including Champ, Fleetguard, and Donaldson. One of our biggest accounts is the largest dealer in Texas for Baldwin. As i've mentioned when I joined this forum Baldwin, Donaldson, and Fram at various times were my accounts when I worked for Champ. I've been through Wix and Frams engineeering departments and have a pretty good idea about their test equipment. I've been through some of Donaldsons lab but not all of it. ( I was only interested in a certain test that I wanted to discuss)
Sixth:..For the person who mentioned blame anything but the filter when it comes to complaints. I can only speak for what I know about Champ but they have and do pay warranties on filters returned where there is a defect. As I do think the other filter manufacturers do as well. I don't care what the marine outboard people do.
But if it ain't the filters fault..then it is the conditions the filter was subjected to.
And last..GM and their by-pass in the mounting head. Yes it does work effectively. But don't you think Ferrari, Jaguar, Mercedes Benz, Honda, Maserati, Porche, VW and the rest of the world wide OEM's might also know the effect of putting the by-pass as part of the filter design? I realize you're probably taking a shot a Ford or Chrysler but they ain't the only ones who put the by-pass in the filter element...
And btw..
I have seen Ferrari and Jaguar filters go down the Champ production line, they don't build them very often though to low a volume..
First..i'm certainly not disputing what lubeowner is finding when he cuts open filters.
Where I think he needs to think a little harder is what would cause a filter to look like it does after he cuts it open. He's found 1 filter where the pleat didn't seat properly in the end cap. Yet he's gone bang on about the clicker valves not working properly and laying the blame there.
There are those in here who want to talk about the laboratory testing versus real world. Well in order to design a new filter the lab may use cadcam but that is but part of the first step. There are "models" built and tested to "specs". But long before any new filter design is produced for the market ( be it new media or an E-core) there is lot's of "real world" testing. Champ had over a million miles of testing on the E-core before allowing it to go to market. It's the same thing they are doing right now with Mobil with the new extended life filter they will be selling soon. Why can't you buy the new Mobil filter? Because they haven't made up their minds which option Champ has designed to actualy sell to the public.
The testing is not done on brand new factory engines. It is done on real world cars. new and old. Cold weather and hot. Dusty conditions and mountainous.
Second..Private label accounts don't tell Champ what specs to build the filters to.
Champ has the engine manufacturers specs and they are the ones who know what "options" they can provide and manufacture for individual private label accounts.
Only with OEM engine business does Champ work with their engineers to provide a filter to their specs. Sometimes the spec is unrealistic for production and the OEM revise their "specs".
Third..profits. I'm glad everyone seems to think Champ is rolling in the dough because of making the E-core filter and it's "cheaper" than the standard metal endcap and by-pass valve design.
Nothing could be further from the truth. It is a more expensive filter to make. Just because retail pricing hasn't gone up, doesn't mean it is a cheaper filter.
This is why competitors at this point in time either aren't making their own metal free element or have delayed doing one themselves. They know the score when it comes to a complete new production line and design.
Fourth: I've said before I will answer questions about filters in general. I've "defended" other brands in previous threads. It's just that the E-core design is like politics in this forum at the moment..
Fifth: I happen to sell Mann, M.P.Filtri, and Mahle filters amoungts other brands. Including Champ, Fleetguard, and Donaldson. One of our biggest accounts is the largest dealer in Texas for Baldwin. As i've mentioned when I joined this forum Baldwin, Donaldson, and Fram at various times were my accounts when I worked for Champ. I've been through Wix and Frams engineeering departments and have a pretty good idea about their test equipment. I've been through some of Donaldsons lab but not all of it. ( I was only interested in a certain test that I wanted to discuss)
Sixth:..For the person who mentioned blame anything but the filter when it comes to complaints. I can only speak for what I know about Champ but they have and do pay warranties on filters returned where there is a defect. As I do think the other filter manufacturers do as well. I don't care what the marine outboard people do.
But if it ain't the filters fault..then it is the conditions the filter was subjected to.
And last..GM and their by-pass in the mounting head. Yes it does work effectively. But don't you think Ferrari, Jaguar, Mercedes Benz, Honda, Maserati, Porche, VW and the rest of the world wide OEM's might also know the effect of putting the by-pass as part of the filter design? I realize you're probably taking a shot a Ford or Chrysler but they ain't the only ones who put the by-pass in the filter element...
It will be interesting to see if the pattern of trouble lubeowner has noted holds in 6 months or more. IMHO, I'm guessing it will, since his sample is his customers. If it does, will that change some minds? I think lubeowner has done us a favor by showing this trend through his hard (extra) work.
I also don't get this implicit thought on here by some that maybe these vehicle owners serviced by lubeowner are just more neglectful. Uh, that is the buying public. Let's hope the manufacturers aren't total dopes and have built in at least some margin.
And shouldn't any oil filter last more than 3,000 miles/3 months under "normal" use? I thought the general BITOG line is that the 3 month interval (or OCI specified by the vehicle manufacturer) declared by Wix, Purolator, others, is simply to sell more filters. Not trying to flame,...oh **** , sorry, yes I am!
Like others, I'd like to say thank you Lubeowner. Look all over the internet on various car enthusiest message boards. Fram has already been exposed like Janet Jackson for years! There ain't no denyin that they make ****** filters! There have been numbers of people on this board that have had problems with various Champion filters. It'll take more people like Lubeowner and others on these boards to stop corporations from selling us crappy products! So there's some conspriracy out there against the filter manufacturers?
Look at the pictures from TONS of people on the net! It's obvious that certain companies sell inferior products (DUH
) Wix and Purolator as I've found are the better made store brand filters. From what I've seen of Champion filters, and the noise my engine made when using one, I have the choice to use other products. It's that simple to me
Filter Guy,
I have thought a little harder about why the media looks as it does....sh%^&y manufacturing.
When i talked about the loose pleat it was AN E-CORE, read the post better. I also said I thought the e-core was a pretty sound design other than the possibility of the nitrile bypass getting hardened over an extended drain and becoming unreliable. Maybe it works maybe not, time will tell.
I have over 50 clicker valve filters in my possession made by Champ neatly boxed up with torn media.
BTW, the Saturday batch of Champs we cut up had a 65% failure rate, and yes I consider failure when media is torn in half, has holes punched through it, or pleats torn away from the glue but that is just me. Like I said pics will be up soon when I get the time.
I have been really trying to find failures with the Mann, Wix, Purolator, etc. so people wont think I am picking on Champ but we have simply found none. Just the Champs and Frams seem to be having the issues.
Filter Guy,
If it makes you fee any better, I exclusively stock the Mann and Mahle lines for all European applications. They are great filters and I have never seen one problem with them. Excellent fit and finish every time.
I have thought a little harder about why the media looks as it does....sh%^&y manufacturing.
When i talked about the loose pleat it was AN E-CORE, read the post better. I also said I thought the e-core was a pretty sound design other than the possibility of the nitrile bypass getting hardened over an extended drain and becoming unreliable. Maybe it works maybe not, time will tell.
I have over 50 clicker valve filters in my possession made by Champ neatly boxed up with torn media.
BTW, the Saturday batch of Champs we cut up had a 65% failure rate, and yes I consider failure when media is torn in half, has holes punched through it, or pleats torn away from the glue but that is just me. Like I said pics will be up soon when I get the time.
I have been really trying to find failures with the Mann, Wix, Purolator, etc. so people wont think I am picking on Champ but we have simply found none. Just the Champs and Frams seem to be having the issues.
Filter Guy,
If it makes you fee any better, I exclusively stock the Mann and Mahle lines for all European applications. They are great filters and I have never seen one problem with them. Excellent fit and finish every time.
Thanks for your efforts lubeowner.
I bet that Purolator or Wix would be more than happy to talk to you about replacing Champion as your supplier for non-Euro vehicles. If I were in your shoes I would not be very comfortable continuing to install Champ products.
No, I don't have anything to do with anyone in the filter industry except as a customer who buys a dozen or so oil filters per year.
John
Lubeowner:
Like I said earlier it's nice for you to determine what is "shoddy" manufacturing. I do realize the one filter that had a pleat not glued was an E-core.
In 18 years with Champ I saw one and heard of another filter that had no threads. This shouldn't happen because of the testing for leaks. But two filters out of the 100's of millions in 18 years proves it can happen.
You sell Warner. How much do you pay for it? ( You don't need to say). But you're expecting a $2 filter to out perform a $4-10 filter. Is that realisitc expectations?
Every filter built by Champ ( Warner included), Fram, Purolator, Wix, etc...ALL meet or exceed manufacturers specs. How much beyond those specs a filter exceeds the spec is up to who sells them to have them made.
When you cut open a filter and see what you see, you are reacting to the end result of the filter being used. You have no control over what the customer has done between oil changes.
I would suggest you are religious in changing the oil in your car. You probably use premium oil. Why don't you put a Warner filter with E-core on your car and cut it open 3,000 or so miles later. Then you will have a reference point from how someone like you treats a motor to the difference of how your customers treat theirs. Have you seen any problems with repeat customers who you know have been changing every 3,000 miles or so and cut their filters open. Maybe you'll see a pattern between the onesy customer who comes in versus your regular customers.
But as I've mentioned before if you have a particular problem you can contact Champ and use their assistance to determine what actually has gone on with the filters you keep complaining about. Send me a PM and i'll give you the name and phone number of the Warranty Manager at Champ. He'll be happy to assist you to find answers to your questions.
Like I said earlier it's nice for you to determine what is "shoddy" manufacturing. I do realize the one filter that had a pleat not glued was an E-core.
In 18 years with Champ I saw one and heard of another filter that had no threads. This shouldn't happen because of the testing for leaks. But two filters out of the 100's of millions in 18 years proves it can happen.
You sell Warner. How much do you pay for it? ( You don't need to say). But you're expecting a $2 filter to out perform a $4-10 filter. Is that realisitc expectations?
Every filter built by Champ ( Warner included), Fram, Purolator, Wix, etc...ALL meet or exceed manufacturers specs. How much beyond those specs a filter exceeds the spec is up to who sells them to have them made.
When you cut open a filter and see what you see, you are reacting to the end result of the filter being used. You have no control over what the customer has done between oil changes.
I would suggest you are religious in changing the oil in your car. You probably use premium oil. Why don't you put a Warner filter with E-core on your car and cut it open 3,000 or so miles later. Then you will have a reference point from how someone like you treats a motor to the difference of how your customers treat theirs. Have you seen any problems with repeat customers who you know have been changing every 3,000 miles or so and cut their filters open. Maybe you'll see a pattern between the onesy customer who comes in versus your regular customers.
But as I've mentioned before if you have a particular problem you can contact Champ and use their assistance to determine what actually has gone on with the filters you keep complaining about. Send me a PM and i'll give you the name and phone number of the Warranty Manager at Champ. He'll be happy to assist you to find answers to your questions.
I believe that all he was expecting was for the filters to not fail in real world use. Is that too, much to ask?
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This would be interesting. If the noted conditions aren't present on Lubeowner's filters ..yet present on many customeres filters ....
FWIW ..I've cut open a few Champs (ST's) and have never seen anything "odd". Fairly even pleats ...no wave .. nuttin~
I too, just based on my experience, would tend to look toward the vehicle service duty (lots of cold starts/short runs= moisture) as a sizable contributing factor to this/these conditions.
Perhaps lubeowner would index these faulty filters with a service record statistic ..like 120 day ..2000 miles ...etc. This would at least show that these either are or are not "frequent flyers". So far we only have a "these are regulars" description. Okay ..but what is your "regular" customer like??? I mean being consciencous to some means not getting pregnant until they're 24 ..beyond that it's shear chaos.
The point that I think lubeowner and others are trying to get across is this,filters should be made for EVERY DAY use.
A filter should not be made to work only in a 'finite' range,they must be made to work and do their job in a wide range of areas.
I am not saying that they should be abused by not getting changed when they need to be but I do think that they should stand up to repeated cold starts,idling etc.
These are things that people do every day,if a filter cant withstand these NORMAL uses then it is not up to par.
A filter that is made a certain way and fails in normal use and in the service/mileage time is a bad filter,how can anyone think otherwise?
This is not just on one type of car but several.
A filter that fails in normal use the way those in question seem to be doing is faulty.
A filter should not be made to work only in a 'finite' range,they must be made to work and do their job in a wide range of areas.
I am not saying that they should be abused by not getting changed when they need to be but I do think that they should stand up to repeated cold starts,idling etc.
These are things that people do every day,if a filter cant withstand these NORMAL uses then it is not up to par.
A filter that is made a certain way and fails in normal use and in the service/mileage time is a bad filter,how can anyone think otherwise?
This is not just on one type of car but several.
A filter that fails in normal use the way those in question seem to be doing is faulty.
The filters by ALL US filter manufacturers are made for everyday use and are tested. As i've mentioned with E-core, over a million miles before the first production run for end users was made.
So everyone wants a $2 filter to last.
So do those who build them.
Can I ask Lubeowner what brand of oil does he use for his least expensive oil change? Does he also offer a semi-synthetic? Does he also offer a synthetic? I bet he has bottled oil of brands that customers ask for but are not his "normal" oils for his lube operation.
Yet, will those who post in here also allow that different formulations of oils will protect better under different conditions? From the "cheap" oil to the most expensive synthetic. Doesn't the "standard" petroleum oil breakdown under certain conditions or excessive heat before the more expensive oils do?
The standard filter will do it's job. It may react a little to improper maintenance earlier than a premium filter. It may have more problems with over pressurization, water/coolant in the oil, sludgy oil, or other anomolies.
It seems as though the oil itself and how the owner treats the car should be independent of what lubeowner see's when he cuts filters open. Well, i'm here to tell you they aren't independent. That is real world. The filter is used in real world conditions. And if a filter has problems, it is because of what has transpired since it was put on new and fresh.
But everyone expects a filter to last in unconditional circumstances. Won't happen.
So panic all you like over what you see in the pictures. I suggest everyone all the time cut open your own filters. Chances are those in here will have few if any problems. As has already been mentioned by a few who have been doing this for sometime. So why do they have no problem and "real world" owners whom lubeowner cuts open their filter do? Are people in here not real world? Or do they handle maintenance better on their vehicles..I think you can work out the answer.
So everyone wants a $2 filter to last.
So do those who build them.
Can I ask Lubeowner what brand of oil does he use for his least expensive oil change? Does he also offer a semi-synthetic? Does he also offer a synthetic? I bet he has bottled oil of brands that customers ask for but are not his "normal" oils for his lube operation.
Yet, will those who post in here also allow that different formulations of oils will protect better under different conditions? From the "cheap" oil to the most expensive synthetic. Doesn't the "standard" petroleum oil breakdown under certain conditions or excessive heat before the more expensive oils do?
The standard filter will do it's job. It may react a little to improper maintenance earlier than a premium filter. It may have more problems with over pressurization, water/coolant in the oil, sludgy oil, or other anomolies.
It seems as though the oil itself and how the owner treats the car should be independent of what lubeowner see's when he cuts filters open. Well, i'm here to tell you they aren't independent. That is real world. The filter is used in real world conditions. And if a filter has problems, it is because of what has transpired since it was put on new and fresh.
But everyone expects a filter to last in unconditional circumstances. Won't happen.
So panic all you like over what you see in the pictures. I suggest everyone all the time cut open your own filters. Chances are those in here will have few if any problems. As has already been mentioned by a few who have been doing this for sometime. So why do they have no problem and "real world" owners whom lubeowner cuts open their filter do? Are people in here not real world? Or do they handle maintenance better on their vehicles..I think you can work out the answer.
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Well, I don't disagree with you...but I've got to point out ..that before lubeowner brought this to our attention ..this would be unheard of here. We've had filters cut open since the beginning of the board ...and besides a Fram slam ..I would like to see more than an isolated instance where a filter was found defective. Sure some have complained of the ADBV going bad and whatnot ..but for the vast majority ..this is "news". I don't see how being a BITOG member would expempt you from these effects if it was that wide spread. We have all kinds of members under all kinds of service duties ..and very few filter "issues". This suggests that the filters that lubeowner happened to pull apart have service duties that have no likeness to all of our members...or so one could reason.
..and...
..as I said .it would be nice to see the actual data on the vehicle if it is a return customer. Was it 6 months and 1200 miles? Was it 4 months and 5,000 miles ..was it ONE YEAR and 3,000 miles?? We don't know. We only have a few (too many) filters with abnormal conditions.
Filter Guy,
Don't take this the wrong way, but have you listened to yourself on here?
These filters that have been failing are failing because they have design issues. You cannot blame everything BUT the filter on filter failure. Even $2 filters should not be self destructing like the ones we have been discussing here. There is no need for you to defend Champion on this issue. They could have paid millions of $$$$ and tested millions of miles and still put out a poor product...companies do it all the time.
Personally, I think that Champ finally found/(admitted to themselves) problems with the clicker bypass valve design and decided to re-invent the filter overall with another low-cost design. Looks like the newer design may have issues with how the filter cartdridge is sealed to the endcap material possibly and the durability/functionality of the combo adbv/bypass valve (jury still out on that one).
Really, you don't need to defend them, they are a big company and can take care of themselves...(as long as not too many people closely evaluate the product anyway..)...sorry, cheap shot.
They will either work out the issues and get back in the game, or they will get away with it for a long time..
Fram has been getting away with it for a long time and look how their product is made....Fram probably spent big bucks on their production lines once upon a time too.
We are all here to learn about this topic that we all have interest in. We will be just as interested when we hear that a company has started improving their product as we will when a company has cheapened their product, it goes both ways. I have learned 2 things in the business world that are pertinent here..
1) people remember poor performance issues longer than good performance issues.
2) people many times respect companies more that fix known issues better than they remember those companies that just don't have any issues. (I never understood that one myself but the point was to make it very clear that you fix your problems.
You have stated multiple times that Champ will warranty any defective filter..as they should. But it has also been stated that any damage from these defective filters may not be seen for many miles down the road and would be difficult to prove was due to any one particular defective filter...that and the fact that most people don't cut up filters and would never know they had a defective one (very well stated point a couple posts back...btw)
Looking forward to seeing some more examples of used filters gone bad...of ANY make/model/use/vehicle/age/summer/winter/female driver/16yr old driver/painted blue/red/black/white/green (orange!) camo or WHATEVER!
Rando
Don't take this the wrong way, but have you listened to yourself on here?
These filters that have been failing are failing because they have design issues. You cannot blame everything BUT the filter on filter failure. Even $2 filters should not be self destructing like the ones we have been discussing here. There is no need for you to defend Champion on this issue. They could have paid millions of $$$$ and tested millions of miles and still put out a poor product...companies do it all the time.
Personally, I think that Champ finally found/(admitted to themselves) problems with the clicker bypass valve design and decided to re-invent the filter overall with another low-cost design. Looks like the newer design may have issues with how the filter cartdridge is sealed to the endcap material possibly and the durability/functionality of the combo adbv/bypass valve (jury still out on that one).
Really, you don't need to defend them, they are a big company and can take care of themselves...(as long as not too many people closely evaluate the product anyway..)...sorry, cheap shot.
They will either work out the issues and get back in the game, or they will get away with it for a long time..
Fram has been getting away with it for a long time and look how their product is made....Fram probably spent big bucks on their production lines once upon a time too.
We are all here to learn about this topic that we all have interest in. We will be just as interested when we hear that a company has started improving their product as we will when a company has cheapened their product, it goes both ways. I have learned 2 things in the business world that are pertinent here..
1) people remember poor performance issues longer than good performance issues.
2) people many times respect companies more that fix known issues better than they remember those companies that just don't have any issues. (I never understood that one myself but the point was to make it very clear that you fix your problems.
You have stated multiple times that Champ will warranty any defective filter..as they should. But it has also been stated that any damage from these defective filters may not be seen for many miles down the road and would be difficult to prove was due to any one particular defective filter...that and the fact that most people don't cut up filters and would never know they had a defective one (very well stated point a couple posts back...btw)
Looking forward to seeing some more examples of used filters gone bad...of ANY make/model/use/vehicle/age/summer/winter/female driver/16yr old driver/painted blue/red/black/white/green (orange!) camo or WHATEVER!
Rando
...guess I'll stick to M1 and MC filters
I can tell you before I found this board I was probably one of Lubeowner's nightmare customers. I thought 3k oil / filter changes was silly - unfortunately I would end up out at 10k miles (on dino).
I can tell you I do NOT expect even a cheapo filter to disentegrate under those circumstances. My driving patterns WERE REAL WORLD driving. If you are going to sell me a filter that falls apart after 4k miles then dammit tell me that. Knowing my slothful ways I would have chosen a different filter. But DON'T just sell me a filter that falls apart and expect me to know that it will happen because, after all, "this is a cheap filter".
And don't try to make the case that "it isn't a cheap filter, it just falls apart after 4k (or whatever) miles". I say if it falls apart, it is a cheap filter. It should hang together at LEAST 3 times the expected 3k miles because THAT is what "real life" customers do with their cars.
I can tell you I do NOT expect even a cheapo filter to disentegrate under those circumstances. My driving patterns WERE REAL WORLD driving. If you are going to sell me a filter that falls apart after 4k miles then dammit tell me that. Knowing my slothful ways I would have chosen a different filter. But DON'T just sell me a filter that falls apart and expect me to know that it will happen because, after all, "this is a cheap filter".
And don't try to make the case that "it isn't a cheap filter, it just falls apart after 4k (or whatever) miles". I say if it falls apart, it is a cheap filter. It should hang together at LEAST 3 times the expected 3k miles because THAT is what "real life" customers do with their cars.
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