Cleanliness: M1 vs. All Comers

[ericthepig]

There's been a lot of BITOG discussion on keeping an engine clean (of soft and hard deposits) - and which oil performs.

So a question - has anyone had varnish laid down in an engine over an extended period on M1 ? After 80k miles on M1 in my Sienna (routinely did 8k OCIs), I had a Toyota mechanic report that the internals were "clean". Also, for what it's worth, the oil shelf in my mom's 98 Taurus looks like a stainless steel mirror after five one year OCIs (about 40k) on M1.

My newly purchased Mazda6 has a "like new" look in the valve area after 47k of 3k OCIs on dino (I don't plan to do 3k OCIs - probably 8 to 10k) - I have no intentions of running dino in this M6 - even at 6k OCIs the word seems to be - dino might keep it clean, or might not - "might" is not acceptable. The engine is perfectly clean and I want it to look like that way at 200k. The only oil that I feel very confident can get me there (even at medium OCIs) is M1 (Amsoil notwithstanding for me due to price). There are others that can give great wear #'s - but I'm not convinced they can do 200k of medium/long OCIs and leave the engine looking new.

As someone stated, (paraphrase) "why worry about varnish - the engine can still run great even with varnish" - this is true - my 88 Mazda 323 is a testament to that. But when I've just procured an engine that looks like it just came off the assembly line - I've got the greed to keep it that way.

BTW - I've decided to keep my 323 - the Sienna will get parked in the garage and only come out for long trips. Meanwhile I'll release my 323 when they pry my cold dead fingers off it's steering wheel.

 

[pickled]

It keeps varnish off by taking the iron that it's attached to along for the ride (see UOA comments). Seriously thought I've rebuilt a few high mileage LT1 corvette motors that had steady diets of M1 and there were only very light areas of accumulation in the sump and on the baffles of the valve covers. Pretty much everything else was spotless.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yup. You've seen my pics. 330,000Km. SPOTLESS. It does a fantastic job.

 

[06VtecV6]

yeah who cares about varnish when the engine performs. I agree 100%. What you don't know won't hurt you. I just keep my eye on the gas needle and trip meter and fill up to full every now and then (I'm a notorious 'half-filler') to track and validate my gas mileage!

 

[tom slick]

This is about 100k miles of 7500 OCI on M1 in my protege5

The dark spots are only oil, no deposits.

 

[ericthepig]

Several factors likely play into the "keep it clean" mentality - first, once you get an engine that's perfectly clean, you might find that you get a bit neurotic on the issue (kind've like the kid that has a 4.0 avg in college - he freaks if he ever loses it). Also, I'm one of those who doesn't transact cars - if history is a guide, I'll likely have this Mazda6 till the electronics dry rot - having a clean engine when that happens will be a sense of accomplishment (plus, at that age those "harmless" soft deposits can take their toll - my 323 requires HM oil to control start up smoke).

 

[ericthepig]

Oils can compete on wear #'s etc, but Tom Slick's pic is just one more reason why I am compelled to drop M1 in my new investment.

 

[Bill in Utah]

The only engine I've had to tear open (down to the block) was my 99 ford Taurus and it was spotless. Period. Everywhere.

Oil change history?

First 21k miles a rent a car.

21k to 61k 4-5k OCI with whatever was on sale, mostly Pennzoil or Valvoline 5w-30.

61k-108k 5-6k OCI same oils.

Sold it after the 2nd set of head gaskets but know the new owner, it just passed 160k and is fine.

If I can get 200k plus (one at 332k) with no issues on yesterdays conventional oils for the last 30plus years, I've got NO concerns with *any* of todays SL/SM oils.

Bill

 

[chevrofreak]

I'd like to see pics of one of the infamous Toyota sludgers that has been fed a steady diet of M1 with no extra additives or cleaners in the oil.

That right there would prove the point to me.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
I'd like to see pics of one of the infamous Toyota sludgers that has been fed a steady diet of M1 with no extra additives or cleaners in the oil.

That right there would prove the point to me.


+1......... Isn't it only Mobil 1 in 5W-30 that seems to be producing the elevated iron #'s that everyone seems to be bashing it about? Seems the 0W-xx in Mobil 1 are doing well in UOA's. The 10W-30 Extended Performance seems to be good also.

JMO

Frank D

 

[Johnny]

First of all, smart decision on keeping the 323. Now, if you like the way Mobil 1 keeps things clean, and your 323 needs HM oils for that puff of smoke, use Mobil 1 HM 10W-40 in the 323. Clean and no puff.

 

[mechtech2]

A good PCV system and not getting too hot will allow almost any modern oil to keep a modern engine clean.

 

[buster]

Because M1 is used mainly for it's high temp stability, it will keep engines very clean. It also does extremely well in deposit control based on TEOST testing.

 

[ARB1977]

Before learning about BITOG i ran Mobil One 5W30 SS for my Tacoma's first synthetic change (9K) at the 500 mile mark the oil started turing fairly dark...alittle to fast for my liking. So i stoped using it and went with Redline instead. Coming to find out even at 9K on the ODO it was cleaning out what every crud was left behind from the dino oil that was used before. Im sure any synthetic oil would of done this. It goes to show even with low miles any synthetic will clean things.

 

[ericthepig]

Originally Posted By: chevrofreak
I'd like to see pics of one of the infamous Toyota sludgers that has been fed a steady diet of M1 with no extra additives or cleaners in the oil.

That right there would prove the point to me.


My 98 Sienna has the 1MZ-FE engine. Bought it at 62k miles. Nothing but M1 for 80k miles - at the end of that run I had valve cover gaskets replace at the Toyota dealership - wish I'd looked for myself - but the mechanic said it was "clean". But sadly no pics.

Originally Posted By: Johnny
First of all, smart decision on keeping the 323. Now, if you like the way Mobil 1 keeps things clean, and your 323 needs HM oils for that puff of smoke, use Mobil 1 HM 10W-40 in the 323. Clean and no puff.


Way ahead of you. My 323 is two wks from completing a 1 yr OCI (3.5k miles so far) on M1 HM 10w40. Best HM I've used to date (imo). Almost no discernable smoke at start-up. Also, the consumption has gone essentially to zero, but this is only in the last 6 months - not sure if it was the M1 or ? Actually still undecided on when I'll drain this M1 HM fill.

 

[JAG]

Originally Posted By: ericthepig
As someone stated, (paraphrase) "why worry about varnish - the engine can still run great even with varnish" - this is true - my 88 Mazda 323 is a testament to that.
I have a bit of an issue with that. Varnish on undersides of valve covers and such is a bad fashion statement (j/k but it does place a thin thermal insulation layer down), but when you varnish an engine, the pistons and rings are likely not as clean as they could be which will have an effect on performance, blow-by, oil consumption.

The other issue is that varnish on the pick-up tube screen is a serious matter. It is like having a clogged artery. A third issue is that seals covered in varnish are less exposed to motor oil that keeps them pliable and in the proper shape/size. A fourth and final issue is that some engines have PCV systems that are easily clogged and very expensive to replace...cough...VW GTI 1.8T. I'm guilty as charged on that and it set me back $500.

Deposits on pistons and rings can be improved by good oil choice/oil intervals after getting excess deposits but those on the valve cover and valvetrain are more difficult to remove.

There have been some engines that got deposits on Mobil 1. A VW VR6 engine owned by a member here is one of them, using M1 0W-40. Not sure if there were engine issues that caused it. BrianWC said some Saab sludge monsters also got deposits using M1. This says nothing in comparison to how other oils would have done in the same engines though. I've also seen pics of an engine that used Redline and it was quite nasty. Any oil can be "broken".

I plan to do some more high temperature deposit tests on some M1 grades, some PP grades, and Rotella-T 5W-40. In the past it was astounding how quickly Delo 400 15W-40 CI-4+ varnished in my tests compared to Mobil 1 and any other synthetic oil I've ever tested. Of course there is more to do with deposit control than just high temperature stability. Engines place additional chemicals (and water) into motor oil along with much more foreign matter that must be suspended.

 

[ericthepig]

As I stated - "plus, at that age those "harmless" soft deposits can take their toll - my 323 requires HM oil to control start up smoke" - I'm not sure if the cause is hard or soft deposits - but looking down into the crankcase, the varnish looks deep layered (ie, thick).

 

[fnbrowning]

I read somewhere else where it was claimed that Mobil sued Quaker State over QS claims it's oil was a synthetic when it was actually a blend.

The poster claimed when Mobil1 lost the suit, Mobil1 started blending also, and it is no longer a true synthetic.

Disclaimer: The lawsuit/Mobil1 story was from unsupported statement.

Since this is "M1 vs. All Comers" anyone care to comment?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: fnbrowning
I read somewhere else where it was claimed that Mobil sued Quaker State over QS claims it's oil was a synthetic when it was actually a blend.

The poster claimed when Mobil1 lost the suit, Mobil1 started blending also, and it is no longer a true synthetic.

Disclaimer: The lawsuit/Mobil1 story was from unsupported statement.

Since this is "M1 vs. All Comers" anyone care to comment?


That was Castrol, not Quaker State. And it was not a lawsuit, rather it was an issue brought before the (API?) and the result was that since GIII oils were so similar in performance than GIV oils, and that the process they went through was a far departure from typical refining, that GIII was allowed to be called a Synthetic.

There are CERTAIN grades of M1 where people have claimed they have a GIII base.

 

[Volvohead]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

There are CERTAIN grades of M1 where people have claimed they have a GIII base.


I won't reopen history here. But it was more than a claim. And the person making it (who was an industry lab tech) was unfortunately hounded from here (among other places) by a few XOM boosters.

Terry has also made some side comments about M1 in the past that were less than inspiring.

Still, M1 is a very fine oil and will do what most synthetics do.