Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
City of Hartford, CT close to declarin bankruptcy
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Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: CT8
Government employees cost the taxpayers too much.
Yup that's 90% of the problem...every city, state, and the U.S.
Just out of curiosity...
How exactly do you expect a city to run if it doesn't have employees?
Or would you rather just prefer chaos in the area you live, 24/7?
BC.
I think he's referring to the tendency of Public employees to have strong unions who can leverage a withdrawal of services in exchange for above average pay and benefits. There is also an implied obligation to set an example for society in general by not being a sweatshop employer which tends to encourage better packages for employees. No-one, not even the most die hard Libertarian, expects a City to be run entirely with robots.
The issue with Hartford is largely a management problem. The ideal solution is a restructuring of the City's management. The silver lining is a bankruptcy, or even the simple threat of bankruptcy, offers Hartford an opportunity to revisit public employee benefits and pensions.
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: CT8
Government employees cost the taxpayers too much.
Yup that's 90% of the problem...every city, state, and the U.S.
Just out of curiosity...
How exactly do you expect a city to run if it doesn't have employees?
Or would you rather just prefer chaos in the area you live, 24/7?
BC.
I think he's referring to the tendency of Public employees to have strong unions who can leverage a withdrawal of services in exchange for above average pay and benefits. There is also an implied obligation to set an example for society in general by not being a sweatshop employer which tends to encourage better packages for employees. No-one, not even the most die hard Libertarian, expects a City to be run entirely with robots.
The issue with Hartford is largely a management problem. The ideal solution is a restructuring of the City's management. The silver lining is a bankruptcy, or even the simple threat of bankruptcy, offers Hartford an opportunity to revisit public employee benefits and pensions.
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: CT8
Government employees cost the taxpayers too much.
Yup that's 90% of the problem...every city, state, and the U.S.
Just out of curiosity...
How exactly do you expect a city to run if it doesn't have employees?
Or would you rather just prefer chaos in the area you live, 24/7?
BC.
This is what bugs me about the State of CT. They make cuts, but not in a smart business sense kind of way. They cut programs and funding for things that we actually need, thinking it will pressure the tax payers to give in to tax increases, instead of just fixing the spending problems that exist. While there is a lot of waste in the state, there are also many departments I worked with that are so understaffed they can barely function. Those are the departments that are always cut because they are the ones the residents get impacted by the most. It is all a clever scheme. You can only realistically cut so many positions before an organization ceases to function.
A few years ago they closed a bunch of DMV offices. We already had so few, and many of them were only open three days a week. This move only made the problem worse, yet we put tons of money into programs nobody uses.
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: CT8
Government employees cost the taxpayers too much.
Yup that's 90% of the problem...every city, state, and the U.S.
Just out of curiosity...
How exactly do you expect a city to run if it doesn't have employees?
Or would you rather just prefer chaos in the area you live, 24/7?
BC.
This is what bugs me about the State of CT. They make cuts, but not in a smart business sense kind of way. They cut programs and funding for things that we actually need, thinking it will pressure the tax payers to give in to tax increases, instead of just fixing the spending problems that exist. While there is a lot of waste in the state, there are also many departments I worked with that are so understaffed they can barely function. Those are the departments that are always cut because they are the ones the residents get impacted by the most. It is all a clever scheme. You can only realistically cut so many positions before an organization ceases to function.
A few years ago they closed a bunch of DMV offices. We already had so few, and many of them were only open three days a week. This move only made the problem worse, yet we put tons of money into programs nobody uses.
Originally Posted By: 86cutlass307
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
Yup, our governor has been making deals with those companies to make them stay in CT. Usually tax breaks, etc, which doesn't help the state's cause.
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
Yup, our governor has been making deals with those companies to make them stay in CT. Usually tax breaks, etc, which doesn't help the state's cause.
Originally Posted By: JustinH
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: CT8
Government employees cost the taxpayers too much.
Yup that's 90% of the problem...every city, state, and the U.S.
I work for a very conservatively run city in Texas. We all do not make big money, and we all do a lot of hard work.
I make MUCH less than someone doing IT for a private company in Texas would make, but quality of life is good.
Same deal here - I work for a conservatively run county. By and large the vast majority of the people I work with work hard and we do not make big money. Private sector employees doing a similar job to mine make substantially more - but they work longer hours and have worse quality of life.
I am not a public servant to get rich. If I were in it for the money, I'd be on the consulting side. Yes, I have a pension. It will not make me rich by any stretch of the imagination, and I pay a substantial portion of my own salary to support it.
The flip side is the benefits and money have to be enough to attract quality people to do the work. Otherwise, its a self fulfilling prophecy - we pay employees too much, so pay them less and wonder why we only get poor employees to do the work...
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: CT8
Government employees cost the taxpayers too much.
Yup that's 90% of the problem...every city, state, and the U.S.
I work for a very conservatively run city in Texas. We all do not make big money, and we all do a lot of hard work.
I make MUCH less than someone doing IT for a private company in Texas would make, but quality of life is good.
Same deal here - I work for a conservatively run county. By and large the vast majority of the people I work with work hard and we do not make big money. Private sector employees doing a similar job to mine make substantially more - but they work longer hours and have worse quality of life.
I am not a public servant to get rich. If I were in it for the money, I'd be on the consulting side. Yes, I have a pension. It will not make me rich by any stretch of the imagination, and I pay a substantial portion of my own salary to support it.
The flip side is the benefits and money have to be enough to attract quality people to do the work. Otherwise, its a self fulfilling prophecy - we pay employees too much, so pay them less and wonder why we only get poor employees to do the work...
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: 86cutlass307
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
Yup, our governor has been making deals with those companies to make them stay in CT. Usually tax breaks, etc, which doesn't help the state's cause.
Tax breaks to corporations in exchange for jobs isn't an economic loss or even a zero-sum exchange. Tax revenue from employees almost always exceeds the tax loss from the offer. Corporate taxes are already lower than personal taxes virtually everywhere; it doesn't cost much to lower the revenue from what was already little revenue in the first place*.
The problem isn't the tax break, it's the tendency for corporations to use the threat of closure or relocation to force a renewal of the original benefit, with the resulting loss of employee contributions to the State's coffers. But you do what you can.
* Corporate tax rate in my Province is 2.0%
Originally Posted By: 86cutlass307
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
Yup, our governor has been making deals with those companies to make them stay in CT. Usually tax breaks, etc, which doesn't help the state's cause.
Tax breaks to corporations in exchange for jobs isn't an economic loss or even a zero-sum exchange. Tax revenue from employees almost always exceeds the tax loss from the offer. Corporate taxes are already lower than personal taxes virtually everywhere; it doesn't cost much to lower the revenue from what was already little revenue in the first place*.
The problem isn't the tax break, it's the tendency for corporations to use the threat of closure or relocation to force a renewal of the original benefit, with the resulting loss of employee contributions to the State's coffers. But you do what you can.
* Corporate tax rate in my Province is 2.0%
Originally Posted By: Danno
Let me guess - pensions obligations to police, firefighters and city employees along with salaries and head counts that are above private industry are causing most of the financial pressures.
Elected officials stay in office as they say yes to contract demands and as there is no alternative they have to say yes.
How broken is that !
House of cards time for pretty well every city in North America. Just look at Dallas as an example.
Our municipality has a population base of 160,000, yet has a budget of $600 million per year. And only $38 million is spent on road upkeep as an example.
You ask the average citizen how much the annual spend of the city is, and they guess $50 million. I tell them the real number and you get a blank stare - they cannot comprehend it.
Just crazy.
Let me guess you did not read the article and just posted more partisan [censored] you heard from someone and believed it as it fit your narrow minded views?
"more than half of the city's properties are tax-exempt"
Na that can't have anything to do with it.
And those evil unions are probably holding out or even asking for more right?
"concessions from the unions"
Opps guess thats not it either.
Let me guess - pensions obligations to police, firefighters and city employees along with salaries and head counts that are above private industry are causing most of the financial pressures.
Elected officials stay in office as they say yes to contract demands and as there is no alternative they have to say yes.
How broken is that !
House of cards time for pretty well every city in North America. Just look at Dallas as an example.
Our municipality has a population base of 160,000, yet has a budget of $600 million per year. And only $38 million is spent on road upkeep as an example.
You ask the average citizen how much the annual spend of the city is, and they guess $50 million. I tell them the real number and you get a blank stare - they cannot comprehend it.
Just crazy.
Let me guess you did not read the article and just posted more partisan [censored] you heard from someone and believed it as it fit your narrow minded views?
"more than half of the city's properties are tax-exempt"
Na that can't have anything to do with it.
And those evil unions are probably holding out or even asking for more right?
"concessions from the unions"
Opps guess thats not it either.
what are the taxes on a $500,000 house in Hartford?
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: 86cutlass307
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
Yup, our governor has been making deals with those companies to make them stay in CT. Usually tax breaks, etc, which doesn't help the state's cause.
Seems to work for GA. They throw billions in handouts on the taxpayers' backs to woo companies there.
Originally Posted By: 86cutlass307
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
Yup, our governor has been making deals with those companies to make them stay in CT. Usually tax breaks, etc, which doesn't help the state's cause.
Seems to work for GA. They throw billions in handouts on the taxpayers' backs to woo companies there.
Originally Posted By: Danno
Let me guess - pensions obligations to police, firefighters and city employees along with salaries and head counts that are above private industry are causing most of the financial pressures.
Elected officials stay in office as they say yes to contract demands and as there is no alternative they have to say yes.
How broken is that !
House of cards time for pretty well every city in North America. Just look at Dallas as an example.
Our municipality has a population base of 160,000, yet has a budget of $600 million per year. And only $38 million is spent on road upkeep as an example.
You ask the average citizen how much the annual spend of the city is, and they guess $50 million. I tell them the real number and you get a blank stare - they cannot comprehend it.
Just crazy.
The unions give money to the politicians and then the politicians give the union employees raises. Criminal.
Let me guess - pensions obligations to police, firefighters and city employees along with salaries and head counts that are above private industry are causing most of the financial pressures.
Elected officials stay in office as they say yes to contract demands and as there is no alternative they have to say yes.
How broken is that !
House of cards time for pretty well every city in North America. Just look at Dallas as an example.
Our municipality has a population base of 160,000, yet has a budget of $600 million per year. And only $38 million is spent on road upkeep as an example.
You ask the average citizen how much the annual spend of the city is, and they guess $50 million. I tell them the real number and you get a blank stare - they cannot comprehend it.
Just crazy.
The unions give money to the politicians and then the politicians give the union employees raises. Criminal.
Originally Posted By: Olas
A city cannot hold a bank account and therefore cannot go bankrupt. There are humans who maintain the bank account, and the organisation they represent is what Is going bankrupt.
Vote to dissolve their organisation and make their liabilities personal, then elect new officials with a new bank account.
Ahhhh... Puerto Rico just filed for bankruptcy. There was no legal objection to the process. Perhaps you should stick to motor vehicles and stay away from US bankruptcy law.
A city cannot hold a bank account and therefore cannot go bankrupt. There are humans who maintain the bank account, and the organisation they represent is what Is going bankrupt.
Vote to dissolve their organisation and make their liabilities personal, then elect new officials with a new bank account.
Ahhhh... Puerto Rico just filed for bankruptcy. There was no legal objection to the process. Perhaps you should stick to motor vehicles and stay away from US bankruptcy law.
States don't a bankruptcy process available to them. Municipalities do. Puerto Rico, a territory, was granted a new bankruptcy like process last year, to which they have now availed themselves.
Originally Posted By: 86cutlass307
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
GE recently moved their corporate headquarters from CT to Boston, big financial incentives from MA to relocate.
If United Technologies can get the same deal, they will also leave CT.
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
GE recently moved their corporate headquarters from CT to Boston, big financial incentives from MA to relocate.
If United Technologies can get the same deal, they will also leave CT.
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Lots of big cities and states are currently bankrupt. They just won't report it as so.
This.
They simply cook the books to hide it.
A local city here has not yet funded all the pensions that are coming due! People should go to jail for making financial decisions like that with taxpayer money!
You apparently don't work in public finance. I do.
There is no way to "cook the books to hide it."
Unlike the corporate world, public accounting is fully transparent and any information anyone might want is available under state open records laws.
Now, some states and municipalities may have agreed to pension obligations they haven't fully funded.
The other side of that is that these pension obligations are owed to cops and firefighters who willingly risk their lives to support their communities on a daily basis as well as many administrative staffers who accepted a lower salary to perform the public's work in exchange for job stability and a decent pension.
So, people should go to jail for having created terms and conditions of employment that allowed a state, city or agency to staff sufficiently to meet the needs of its constituent population?
Sorry, but you really don't have a clue.
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Lots of big cities and states are currently bankrupt. They just won't report it as so.
This.
They simply cook the books to hide it.
A local city here has not yet funded all the pensions that are coming due! People should go to jail for making financial decisions like that with taxpayer money!
You apparently don't work in public finance. I do.
There is no way to "cook the books to hide it."
Unlike the corporate world, public accounting is fully transparent and any information anyone might want is available under state open records laws.
Now, some states and municipalities may have agreed to pension obligations they haven't fully funded.
The other side of that is that these pension obligations are owed to cops and firefighters who willingly risk their lives to support their communities on a daily basis as well as many administrative staffers who accepted a lower salary to perform the public's work in exchange for job stability and a decent pension.
So, people should go to jail for having created terms and conditions of employment that allowed a state, city or agency to staff sufficiently to meet the needs of its constituent population?
Sorry, but you really don't have a clue.
Originally Posted By: 86cutlass307
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
They moved from Hartford to Farmington CT, two towns away;
You are thinking of Pratt and Whitney, a UTC subsidiary; that is in East Hartford.
As for Hartford, Luke Bronin is probably about as capable as a person can get; not a 'machine' mayor.
Was there a news story some time back, that quietly went away, that United Technologies was in discussion with 3 different places I believe to relocate their headquarters out of East Hartford? I may be thinking of another corporate entity but UTC sticks in memory on this one.
They moved from Hartford to Farmington CT, two towns away;
You are thinking of Pratt and Whitney, a UTC subsidiary; that is in East Hartford.
As for Hartford, Luke Bronin is probably about as capable as a person can get; not a 'machine' mayor.
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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
these pension obligations are owed to cops and firefighters who willingly risk their lives to support their communities on a daily basis as well as many administrative staffers who accepted a lower salary to perform the public's work in exchange for job stability and a decent pension.
Pretty much this. If pensions are choking things (possible) just make new hires do a 403(b) in the stock market with their own money. Probably safer anyway so the gov't doesn't come snarf it up under some ruse a generation from now when things are (claimed to be) even worse looking.
these pension obligations are owed to cops and firefighters who willingly risk their lives to support their communities on a daily basis as well as many administrative staffers who accepted a lower salary to perform the public's work in exchange for job stability and a decent pension.
Pretty much this. If pensions are choking things (possible) just make new hires do a 403(b) in the stock market with their own money. Probably safer anyway so the gov't doesn't come snarf it up under some ruse a generation from now when things are (claimed to be) even worse looking.
I thought most public pensions such as PERS were ran separately from the government. They have to follow that same solvency criteria as any 401 or 403 organization. Most government employees these days pay 100% of their pensions. Pension pickups are a thing of the past. I work for a 403 organization and its better than any 457 (govt). They match.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Lots of big cities and states are currently bankrupt. They just won't report it as so.
This.
They simply cook the books to hide it.
A local city here has not yet funded all the pensions that are coming due! People should go to jail for making financial decisions like that with taxpayer money!
You apparently don't work in public finance. I do.
There is no way to "cook the books to hide it."
Unlike the corporate world, public accounting is fully transparent and any information anyone might want is available under state open records laws.
Now, some states and municipalities may have agreed to pension obligations they haven't fully funded.
The other side of that is that these pension obligations are owed to cops and firefighters who willingly risk their lives to support their communities on a daily basis as well as many administrative staffers who accepted a lower salary to perform the public's work in exchange for job stability and a decent pension.
So, people should go to jail for having created terms and conditions of employment that allowed a state, city or agency to staff sufficiently to meet the needs of its constituent population?
Sorry, but you really don't have a clue.
Pretty simple, I'll explain it for you.
The books are indeed open? Go into City Hall and ask to see them. Local firefighters were DENIED this. So you really have no clue here. This is happening right now in a city near me where some good friends work. I have attended the meetings between union reps and city officials. Have you?
And news flash: this city has inadequate staffing of more than one agency in an effort to reduce their expenditures. My point was simply that these folks have paid for their benefits, yet they are being ignored. Would you like to work hard for decades and then find out the funds that were paid in by you were spent somewhere else?
Sit on your high horse and throw out some more condescension...
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Lots of big cities and states are currently bankrupt. They just won't report it as so.
This.
They simply cook the books to hide it.
A local city here has not yet funded all the pensions that are coming due! People should go to jail for making financial decisions like that with taxpayer money!
You apparently don't work in public finance. I do.
There is no way to "cook the books to hide it."
Unlike the corporate world, public accounting is fully transparent and any information anyone might want is available under state open records laws.
Now, some states and municipalities may have agreed to pension obligations they haven't fully funded.
The other side of that is that these pension obligations are owed to cops and firefighters who willingly risk their lives to support their communities on a daily basis as well as many administrative staffers who accepted a lower salary to perform the public's work in exchange for job stability and a decent pension.
So, people should go to jail for having created terms and conditions of employment that allowed a state, city or agency to staff sufficiently to meet the needs of its constituent population?
Sorry, but you really don't have a clue.
Pretty simple, I'll explain it for you.
The books are indeed open? Go into City Hall and ask to see them. Local firefighters were DENIED this. So you really have no clue here. This is happening right now in a city near me where some good friends work. I have attended the meetings between union reps and city officials. Have you?
And news flash: this city has inadequate staffing of more than one agency in an effort to reduce their expenditures. My point was simply that these folks have paid for their benefits, yet they are being ignored. Would you like to work hard for decades and then find out the funds that were paid in by you were spent somewhere else?
Sit on your high horse and throw out some more condescension...
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Some states have stronger open records laws than others.
I don't know what Florida's statute requires or how requests have to be made.
Assuming that Florida has anything like a government in the sunshine law (sorry, couldn't resist), those seeking records access and having it denied should take their concerns to the state attorney general.
You're agreeing with my point that those promised pensions should get them.
If funds that should have been used to invest and build reserves to cover those future pension obligations were actually diverted to other uses, then you're right and there is potentially a criminal violation.
One cute way of doing this would be to use the pension fund inflows to buy debt obligations of the entity responsible for the pensions, kind of like Social Security but without the federal ability to create currency reserves to cover the debt obligations.
I don't know what Florida's statute requires or how requests have to be made.
Assuming that Florida has anything like a government in the sunshine law (sorry, couldn't resist), those seeking records access and having it denied should take their concerns to the state attorney general.
You're agreeing with my point that those promised pensions should get them.
If funds that should have been used to invest and build reserves to cover those future pension obligations were actually diverted to other uses, then you're right and there is potentially a criminal violation.
One cute way of doing this would be to use the pension fund inflows to buy debt obligations of the entity responsible for the pensions, kind of like Social Security but without the federal ability to create currency reserves to cover the debt obligations.
With my pension (I fortunately have 2) I will definitely do a lump sum withdrawal and roll the cash into my IRA.
Dallas police and firefighter pension had too many people doing lump sum withdrawals once word got out the plan was in bad shape.
Dallas police and firefighter pension had too many people doing lump sum withdrawals once word got out the plan was in bad shape.
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