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- Jun 11, 2021
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- 38
Oh, ok ,so not that big a deal really. Surprised they are allowed to contravene the "max 10% Ethanol" label on the pump.
Thank You.
Circle K gasoline
- Thread starter Wardonkey
- Start date
Thank You.
I don’t think it’s quite that. E10 is a max 10% by volume, but blending different liquids is kind of odd. That blend may actually hit the max 10% by volume.
I looked it up again. All fuel ethanol is required to be at least 2% denaturant by weight, although I'm not sure how that works by volume. So I guess that could push it right against 10% alcohol by volume.
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2020
- Messages
- 768
All of our local Shell stations are becoming Circle K, so I just did a quick search at toptiergas.com to find a replacement. FWIW, they list Meijer as Top Tier.
That's what was told to me by the terminal operators. They told me specifically that BP wants their ethanol blend set to 10.25%.
I can show you various manifests for different brands. Each time, all the other brands are nearly 10% on the nose...BP however contains 10.2-10.25% every single time. Doesn't matter if I load 1000 gallons or 9000 gallons.I looked it up again. All fuel ethanol is required to be at least 2% denaturant by weight, although I'm not sure how that works by volume. So I guess that could push it right against 10% alcohol by volume.
But if they market it as not containing more than 10% ethanol by volume, it can't legally exceed that. Not sure what the deal is (and what kind of rounding errors are allowed), but the requirement for fuel ethanol is that it has to contain at least 2% denaturant, although I'm seeing some references to this being by weight as others saying this is by volume. Ironically enough, the denaturant is usually petroleum.
Glossary - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
Official Energy Statistics from the U.S. Government
Fuel ethanol: Ethanol intended for fuel use. Fuel ethanol in the United States must be anhydrous (less than 1 percent water). Fuel ethanol is denatured (made unfit for human consumption), usually prior to transport from the ethanol production facility, by adding 2 to 5 volume percent petroleum, typically pentanes plus or conventional motor gasoline. Fuel ethanol is used principally for blending in low concentrations with motor gasoline as an oxygenate or octane enhancer.
So adding a little bit more than 10% denatured alcohol means that there's slightly less than 10% actual ethanol, not even counting the possibility of up to 1% water in the ethanol.
My math for that 900 gallons plus 102 gallons of denatured fuel ethanol was this:
102 gallons fuel ethanol x .98 max ethanol concentration = 99.96 gallons max ethanol.
Max ethanol concentration = 99.96 gallons max ethanol / 1002 gallons = 9.976%.
The only thing I could think of is that fuel ethanol is not pure ethanol. It has to be denatured with hydrocarbons. I ran the numbers given and got less than 10% actual ethanol by volume.
That's great! I didn't realize Meijer went that way. That gives me two more options, depending on which way I drive home.
You're doing the math incorrectly. Multiply 1000 x 10.2% = 102. That's how I've always done it and that's how it's itemized on the manifest. 9000 gallons x 10.25% = 922 gallons. A BP loading manifest will show this every single load.But if they market it as not containing more than 10% ethanol by volume, it can't legally exceed that. Not sure what the deal is (and what kind of rounding errors are allowed), but the requirement for fuel ethanol is that it has to contain at least 2% denaturant, although I'm seeing some references to this being by weight as others saying this is by volume. Ironically enough, the denaturant is usually petroleum.
Glossary - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
Official Energy Statistics from the U.S. Governmentwww.eia.gov
Fuel ethanol: Ethanol intended for fuel use. Fuel ethanol in the United States must be anhydrous (less than 1 percent water). Fuel ethanol is denatured (made unfit for human consumption), usually prior to transport from the ethanol production facility, by adding 2 to 5 volume percent petroleum, typically pentanes plus or conventional motor gasoline. Fuel ethanol is used principally for blending in low concentrations with motor gasoline as an oxygenate or octane enhancer.
So adding a little bit more than 10% denatured alcohol means that there's slightly less than 10% actual ethanol, not even counting the possibility of up to 1% water in the ethanol.
My math for that 900 gallons plus 102 gallons of denatured fuel ethanol was this:
102 gallons fuel ethanol x .98 max ethanol concentration = 99.96 gallons max ethanol.
Max ethanol concentration = 99.96 gallons max ethanol / 1002 gallons = 9.976%.
For ExxonMobil, Motiva (Shell), Citgo, Chevron-Texaco...1000x10%=100 gallons. That is what their itemized loading manifest will show every single time.
Well - I'm making the assumption here that the "ethanol" that's being blended in is a denatured fuel ethanol as required by law. That fuel ethanol is going to be a maximum of 98% ethanol, assuming that it contains zero water. Maybe my math is slightly off, but what I'm saying is that it could be possible to go slightly over 10% "fuel ethanol", but still be under the 10% ethanol requirement.
Some of the SDS for fuel ethanol seem a little bit odd, but this one seems to match the EIA definition of it containing 2-5% petroleum as a denaturant.
Ethanol 95-98%
Natural Gasoline 2-5%
Natural Gasoline 2-5%
Gasoline N/A
Benzene N/A
All I can tell you what I've been told by the terminal operators where I load fuel every day. BP has their ethanol spec'd to 10.25% whereas everybody else is spec'd to 10%...and all the loading manifests are consistent in showing exactly that. It's the same in Doraville, Athens and Macon GA, N Augusta and Belton, SC...BP always shows 0.2-.25% more ethanol than all others.
I get that. However, what I'm pretty sure of is that numbers on the manifests represent what is legally "fuel ethanol". That obviously isn't going to be medical or beverage grade ethanol. They're required to blend in at least 2% gasoline to make it unsafe to use as a beverage.
Even using that much could result in it being under 10% actual ethanol, or maybe slightly above it if rounding errors are allowed
Or drip gas. Casinghead gas from natural gas pipelines.
Is that legal? Never mind - I looked it up and apparently it is. I guess it's only a tiny amount that's fine as long as it becomes a tiny proportion of the finished fuel.
And it's cheap, pretty high octane, and if it comes off a transmission line with Mercaptan, smells to high heaven!
Sure. There’s a lot of oddball stuff that ends up in pump fuel. Additives need a carrier solvent, and that can be all sorts of stuff as long as it doesn’t affect the fuel too much. It’s moved through pipelines where there might have been some residual jet fuel or heating oil, although I hear there are often separate pipelines for gasoline and for heavier fuels like kerosene or even crude.
I’ve used Chevron Pro-Gard, which is a big 20 oz bottle of mostly Stoddard solvent. Mixed in m10 gallons that’s over 1.5%. But I guess it doesn’t affect the properties enough.
As for the comment by GD40, I’m still under the impression that E10 means a max 10% ethanol by volume. I’m pretty sure that BP knows this and whatever they do is targeting the edge of E10, accounting for fuel ethanol being cut with at least 2% of some sort of hydrocarbons. And the final result still has to meet a bunch of performance tests. In my state, the Air Resources Board performs spot checks at a mobile lab, and I’m pretty sure they can test for ethanol content as well as some other tests.
Don't forget, we're only talking about a denaturing agent here. Common practice today is just to use gasoline.
But in years gone by (many) I've seen the stuff pumped directly into finished product tanks. Benzene too, straight from the coke works. In fact, I've loaded barges with it destined for the refinery. Don't ask me how I survived all that!
But in years gone by (many) I've seen the stuff pumped directly into finished product tanks. Benzene too, straight from the coke works. In fact, I've loaded barges with it destined for the refinery. Don't ask me how I survived all that!
Ty
Sure. But it’s not as if they have a special denatured ethanol meant for 93 octane E10. They just assume that so little if whatever they have contributes so little that they can still rely on the blend to meet all regulatory requirements. Even if a tiny bit of kerosene, benzene, etc. gets in there.
Sure. But it’s not as if they have a special denatured ethanol meant for 93 octane E10. They just assume that so little if whatever they have contributes so little that they can still rely on the blend to meet all regulatory requirements. Even if a tiny bit of kerosene, benzene, etc. gets in there.
