Chinese Aircraft Carriers
- Thread starter Snagglefoot
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Folks, we are going to take a break from all the political commentary and interpersonal bickering.
Lock time.
Edit: I have going through and scrubbed the off topic, the trolling, and the political - if we can avoid those - we can talk carriers, subs, island building, etc.
Thanks,
Astro
Lock time.
Edit: I have going through and scrubbed the off topic, the trolling, and the political - if we can avoid those - we can talk carriers, subs, island building, etc.
Thanks,
Astro
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Thanks and you make a great point - subs bring a LOT to the fight and we cannot have a credible surface force that is vulnerable under the water.
Submarine capability is critical to the fight.
Did they reverse engineer EV's? Truly curious since theirs seems to be better and than anybody else's.
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Elon Musk willingly GAVE away his engineering research and designs for his Tesla automobiles, including to China. His humanitarian thoughts were that EV's were absolutely necessary to save humanity from greenhouse gasses regardless of who built them. Unfortunately, China took full advantage of this and it brought China up to speed on all the technology needed to not only compete, but to dominate the market.
His intentions were good, albeit self destructive in the end.
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Thank you Dave.
I think the US Government has been naive. We can't know for sure what technology China has developed as citizens, but we can "hope" our government is as dedicated to spying on the CCP as it is on it's own citizens. Somehow, I have doubts their priorities are straight in DC.
China possesses hypersonic weapons. AFAIK, America does not yet. In fact, IIRC, our leadership has concluded that such weapons would be of little use in actual combat and instead lays all our bets on complex communications and information sharing schemes based off of satellites (which would probably all be taken out in the first hour of any major conflict)..at which point the entire house of cards would collapse and leave American air assets floundering and vulnerable.
I hate to say it but I feel our military leadership is confused and outsmarted badly. You just have to look at our societal rot and the madness we call normal today.
I would not hesitate to believe that China has developments we are unaware of. Technology superior to Americas. Such developments would likely be far better protected than Americas secrets. I think we (our military) just assumes we have a better trained military than China and to some extent that may be true. But America is woefully unprepared to deal with a manufacturing battle against China if asset attrition is considered.
Finally, I believe a substantial number of US citizens would even join with China domestically and disrupt our efforts to defend America internally due to payoffs, bribes or just delusion. It's madness. Have you seen the movie "Idiocracy" ?
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And I think you're pushing a purposeful bs narrative that I've seen too well before. Used to be a time the russians were putting some effort into polishing these turds to at least some shine, nowadays they just leave them out in the open, as they know some fly will come, pick some up and sread it around.
It's the typical stuff - push the bs, agree with the rebuke, then repush it the same. Most important - be polite and most of all - concerned. FUD in its purest form.
It's the typical stuff - push the bs, agree with the rebuke, then repush it the same. Most important - be polite and most of all - concerned. FUD in its purest form.
It is a very effective demonstration of how effective modern forces, aided unopposed air power can be, against 1970's equipment and tactics, in the mostly open desert.
If the Russians left their S-400 SAM system active, I assume air support would've be much more limited?
Also it was only a couple years later in the Azerbaijan-Armenia war, where drones decided the battle.
China is supplying drone parts and tech to both Russia and Ukraine and presumably learning quite a bit in the process, and likely saving their "good stuff" for themselves, so I suspect they will have a big advantage in drone "swarm" type weapons?
To me, anyways, this seems like the future of combat, with human led clouds of semi-autonomous weapons systems, and China has the mass-production part figured out already.
China builds around 10 times the total tonnage of the US Navy in merchant marine vessels, every year, so maybe they build 100's of huge ships housing hundreds of thousands of drones of all types? Some design based on super tanker could have a range of 80k miles without refueling, and have 4+ acres per deck of space?
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What would be the point ?
- Against a weaker/technologically subpar opponent, a mega swarm of drones will be extensively destructive, but the Chinese don't need new crafts types for that. They already have a bazillion of ships and ways to deliver them. Fishing trawlers, commercial ships, commercial tankers, airplanes, rafts, sea drones, motorized flotsam if you will - you name it. No need to build something new.
- Against a technologically advanced opponent, its irrelevant - they can buld 400 acre ships with a billion drones - those ships will simply never make it close enough to their designated target for their drones to hit.
This is not new - we are talking loitering munitions, just at scale. You can scale loitering munitions in quality, quantity, or both. Drone swarms would rely mostly on quantity. Defense against them will rely on quantity/brute power as well. Anti-drone drones, or simply enough explosive walls to knock them off. Some directional MOAB-blast will knock off any amount of approaching drones in the area it covers.
In a maritime settings, this will become a stalemate very quickly. Keep in mind that even at $1k per drone which is very, very cheap by wepons price standard - you'd need $1 million for a swarm of 1000. One hundred mil for a swarm for 100000, or ten swarms of 10000. It adds up quickly. A $100 mil attack is also 100 modern missiles at 1 mil a pop, which can be way more destructive.
Also note that as far as defense goes - an already existing Phalanx system's 1550 rounds magazine costs around $70k. 1550 times 45ish bucks a pop. If we count our 1000 drones swarm at $1mil, you can still dedicate 10 rounds per drone and you're at $700k spent in defense. And I doubt that you'd need 10 rounds per drone. And speaking of $1k/pop drones - you'd need to double and triple taps many of them on the same spot for some substantial damage, so it's not like one drone makes it and all is lost.
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OVERKILL
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Boomers with their chicken wings may have you thinking that way, but the only reason the situation up here looks the way it does is due to the complete collapse of the NDP whose leader propped up the actor-in-chief during his three-curtain soap. That said, DT hasn't made having good relations, be they diplomatic or trade, easy, and that's been pissing people off.
4wd
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Good luck with that …
4wd
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When is RR going to have engines ready for that antique fighter …
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Tru-D! TruD! TruD!Growing up I always wonder how US and USSR ended up being the 2 world super power and then over the decades USSR collapsed into the 3rd world and China replaced it over time (and IMO would surpassed it), and how US avoided that fate. One thing I noticed later is that US funded the military through civilian economy, and over time the R&D that was initially for military ended up in the civilian world generating economic activities that perpetually fund it. On the other hand in communist nations they regulate and suffocate the civilian economy to fund the military, gaining some short term boom like how they got jet engine and rocket before US, but then over time fall behind. China's military didn't get a modern boom until they finally gave up on communism and at least partially turn capitalism, and despite still being dictatorship they have the economy power to modernize and avoid a USSR collapse like scenario, and surpassed it in the logistic aspect of the military power IMO (Russia may still have better hardware but no money to keep its logistic running as well as China).
One thing I still don't understand is, it is easy in other nations to have a general revolt and turn dictator, but it likely won't happen in the US or EU. I wonder why is that (it cannot be culture as everyone has similar human nature in the world and nobody can resist the temptation). It must have something to do with funding and profit, but how did we prevent that?
One thing I still don't understand is, it is easy in other nations to have a general revolt and turn dictator, but it likely won't happen in the US or EU. I wonder why is that (it cannot be culture as everyone has similar human nature in the world and nobody can resist the temptation). It must have something to do with funding and profit, but how did we prevent that?
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Per Sarah Paine: Compounded growth.
Creating a legal and societal framework which allows people to simply go on and work in their best interest, which is usually financial. Have that financial wealth multiply, and feed science.
For her, Western Civilization is the richest soil for the above to grow on and is defined by three basic things: Greek logic, Roman law, and Judeo-Christian moral values. Disclaimer, I'm not going into religion here. Also note that I'm not saying Western Civilization in the sense of Westerners - but in the sense of societies which follow Western Civilization's principles.
Greek Logic: particularly Aristotelian logic. Mostly: the law of non-contradiction — the idea that contradictory statements cannot both be true and untrue in the same sense (something cannot be both A and not-A simultaneously). Encourages thinking that demands clarity, resolution of paradoxes, and strict consistency. This in turn feeds scientific inquiry, problem-solving, and so on. Basically - a philosophy of no BS.
Roman Law: The basis of most modern Western legal systems and institutions. Results in codified rules, contracts, property rights, and impartial application. This allows for stable a legal framework that protects personal initiative.
Judeo-Christian Moral Values: The relevant part is - centered on the individual. Recognizing the importance of the individual in turn calls for the individual's personal moral accountability, equality, compassion, forgiveness, and human dignity. This is not pinko-hippie flower kumbayah, it's simply - the individual is the most important, hence the individual bears a heavy personal burden to be better and give their best.
Note that none of the above is exclusive to Western civilization. It's just that Western Civilization combines them best, in the most efficient way. It's like a three-legged stool: take one leg off, and the whole thing falls.
Other types of society can temporarily mobilize around a goal (ex: Soviet Union fighting the Nazis for survival), but once the threat is gone, their natural order of things is not allowing the individual to get better - it is to keep the party in power.
Sarah Paine's lectures are available on Youtube and on Spotify. I highly recommend them. She puts complex stuff into simple, incredibly well put together words.
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I understand your logic and theory but this didn't cover the human instinct to break the rule if there is no consequence or if the violator has a good chance of overtaking the role of the moral and legal enforcer.
Every nation who followed the above 3 had some nations who got overthrown by their military generals. I think Argentina is the closest in Latin America, and up till the 80s Spain was under military dictator rule, and I don't think there were much of that at all in Serbia during the 90s when Yugoslavia broke up. I am not blaming any of them individually as that's really the human nature.
What I specifically want to know and understand is, how US didn't have that problem over 200 years when even France and Germany did.
Not yet, if judging how history goes. However, we are a much larger country with bases pretty far apart and not letting the military, outside of the NG, operate on US soil is probably another factor.
What the French do pretty good though, is protest and get rid of politicians they don't want.
There was that thing in 1860. Possibly you have heard of it.
Things were getting pretty frosty with the Unions and such before WW1 broke out and sort of spread that part out.
Also people with full belly's usually don't revolt?
