Cheap German cars

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Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by PimTac
They build them good in Germany, eh Heinie?

You see they are easily repaired, unlike GM, Chrysler or Ford.




Interesting. I've never had anything repaired on my Japanese vehicles. It was all normal maintenance. That is over 28 years of exclusive Japanese brand ownership.

LOL, IDK I have Land Cruiser too. It is like they put suspension from Corolla on Land Cruiser, or maybe I should not use it in off road? You think that is just marketing? Or numerous EGR valves on engine? Or back pressure valves? Or CR pump that goes nuts every time diesel is not of laboratory purity?
 
Originally Posted by philipp10
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by philipp10
I once was considering a 3 series. Awesome car. But the Monday after looking at it, I made a call to inquire on a starter for the 3 series as well as my Toyota Camry. This was back in the early 2000's. BMW 3 series starter rebuilt: $300. The Camry starter: $60. Then and there I decided the 3 series was not so cool.

Or for example look at my case.
Before Sienna owned BMW X5 35d. Had to change car due to size (expanding family).
Anyway, here are some examples:
BMW X5 35d sport package, 2013:
Front rotors (Brembo): got both on sale for $120, regular price $105 per rotor.
Textar pads (front: $90 (OE suppler, same brake performance).
BMW OE pads (front): $135
ATE pads (front): $96 (also OE supplier).
Textar pads(Rear): $56
BMW OE pads (rear): $90
ATE pads (rear): $76
Used all those pads at one point or another while owning vehicle.
Air filter: $19
AC filter (now this is tricky, X5 has 3): all 3 $40.
Oil filter: $17 (BMW OE Made by Mahle), MANN is $10, Hengst $12, Mahle $19.

Toyota SIenna, 3,5 V6 Limited, 2015:
Toyota OE front rotors are $115 per piece, but they are such POS that I did not get them as I was already having issue with vibrations due to quality.
EBC Ultimax rotors: $167 on Thanxgiving sale, regular price for pair: $250. Will se quality, but used them before on VW's, were good.
EBC front pads (Green stuff): $97 on sale. They do brake MUCH better than OE Toyota, same price. So Toyota front pads are $40 cheaper than BMW, but BMW's are actually, well, braking. Replacement pads from Textar and ATE are braking same as BMW OE (they are suppliers) and they cost same as Toyota's, except, well, they brake.
Toyota OE rear pads: $67. had to install them, did not have time to wait internet order. Considering size, no wonder car brakes like POS.
Air filter: $22
AC filter: $25
Oil filter: $10, but there are sometimes on sale.

So, regular maintenance on Toyota is pretty much same, except in BMW when you step on brake pedal, it brakes, in Toyota that is pretty much hypothetical.
Do not get me started on horrid built quality of Toyota, body that is as thin as Coors beer can.
But starter.... I mean, it does goes on same rate as pads, right?




fair enough. The 3 series had one other issue, a coolant check engine light was on. Dealer refused to fix it. Looked it up....it was a fairly common issue (can't remember what it exactly was) but it was not cheap to fix as I recall. So I guess unless I feel like fixing constant problems....I'll stick with the Toyota's. That said, in my opinion, Toyota's days as being dominant in quality are probably in the past. I started driving them back in 1986 and that was a period where nothing compared to a Toyota in terms of reliability. Nowdays....most everyone seems to have caught up.

What are constant issues? Do share with us as others might benefit from that knowledge!
 
Originally Posted by ram_man
Well everyone I can work on the car myself and I want something enthusiast minded I found a one owner 01 6cyl 2.8 Jetta how are they?


Are you familiar with working on a VR6?

You seem like a glutton for punishment
21.gif
Based on your history on the board my understanding is that you aren't overly familiar with working on European cars. Given the dissatisfaction/issues with the Dart and other vehicles you've owned I'm having a hard time picturing you with a BMW or VW, both of which, while fun, can be "needy" and this will be pretty much guaranteed at the price point you are shopping. Did you check out the threads I linked about the 3'er we bought? It was a good deal, and we didn't take a bath on it when we eventually sold it, but it certainly required work, which we expected at the price point. I also purchased a copy of AutoEnginuity with the BMW module so I could read codes, data log...etc. I still have it and use it on my sister's car. A generic scan tool will get you nowhere on a bimmer.

Honestly, if you are just looking for something enthusiast-minded as you state, it is hard to beat a Mustang. You should be able to find a PI 4.6L GT I would expect that could fit your budget. Yes, it'll probably be beaten on like a red-headed stepchild, but they are pretty durable, parts are cheap and they are easy to wrench on.
 
Originally Posted by ram_man
I am going to let her have the dart as her full time daily. I have come across a few early 2000's BMW's with manual transmissions around 150,000 miles they look decent as well.


Is that girlfriend a keeper? That Dart is going to have more issues than the BMW.
 
The dart has been pretty decent it's needed very minor things. That cars only real annoyance was the vibration which all came back to people not balancing them correctly. I'm driving it to Colorado next week. I also want something that's enjoyable and fun to tinker with. I don't mind tinkering .
 
Originally Posted by ram_man
Well everyone I can work on the car myself and I want something enthusiast minded I found a one owner 01 6cyl 2.8 Jetta how are they?


A hoot to drive. RooflessVW likely helpful here.

My experience with VW Corrado was wonderful. Similar engine
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by StevieC
Another way to look at it is this way... When you see old cars on the road what do you see?

Not very many 1994 BMW 530i, that's for sure. There was this girl I used to see on the freeway driving one (even more odd since she appeared to be under 25) but I haven't seen her in about a year. That was the only other one I've actually seen in the greater Milwaukee area.

Oh and FWIW in answering the spirit of the topic question, I got my BMW essentially for free. However it has cost me more than all three of my Asian cars combined to keep running, I only do so because I like driving it.
 
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by StevieC
Another way to look at it is this way... When you see old cars on the road what do you see?

Not very many 1994 BMW 530i, that's for sure.


That's what I was getting at.

Originally Posted by kschachn
Oh and FWIW in answering the spirit of the topic question, I got my BMW essentially for free. However it has cost me more than all three of my Asian cars combined to keep running, I only do so because I like driving it.


That has been my experience as well having fixed them.
 
Old GT cars can be problematic, and as far as I am aware cheap BMW's do not exist. However if you insist, make sure a pro mechanic with a scantool that knows BMW's inspects it before you do go forward. They can know things about the production runs that can be helpful. If I was to pick a used GT/Sports sedan for $3-5k with 100k miles+ it would be from among the following: IS/GS300/330, Toyota Avalon, iron bore Acura v6's or Eurospec Accord v6 manual or a G35 either with the manual or an x with the trans cooler. P.S. A rebuilt starter is a bad metric, that should be a new OEM component and you'd be better off comparing the starter replacement on the IS300 to the BMW 3, they were competitive vehicles unlike the 3 vs Corolla/Camery example.
 
Just to add my experience here to all of the others that have been shared.

I currently own 5 German cars and have had a very good experience with all of them. I've also owned many American and Japanese cars over the years.

My 2004 530i(e60) has been fantastic for the 11 years I've owned it. It now has about 230,000 miles and still runs and drives nearly perfectly. The inline 6 is an absolute joy with only minor maintenance over the years, replace valve cover gasket, spark plugs, Vanos seals, water pump, thermostat, coolant tank, heater valve and belts. I also replaces two suspension bushings and front brake pads. Rear brake pads are original unbelievably at 230,000 miles. Also replaced air filters, cabin filters, oil obviously and ATF once. Nothing electrical has ever broken on it and everything still works perfectly including AC which I have never touched. Tires too of course.

I've had my 1988 325i convertible (e30) for about 10 years now and it's also been great. Timing belt and water pump were pretty easy to do and just filter and fluid changes. It has over 300,000 miles and had the trans rebuilt once before I bought it. I replaced the front struts once which was surprisingly easy job.

My 2000 Porsche Boxster with a flat 6, 56,000 miles, has also been great. Bought it a couple years ago from an old college buddy and it drives great and has not required much at all to keep it running fine. I've taken it down to the Tail of the Dragon and drove it pretty hard and it was fantastic.

I have a newer 2016 Passat 1.8T which has required nothing but oil changes and zero trips to dealer, but that doesn't help you at all since you're looking at older cars.

Finally, I have a 2001 Jetta wagon (Mk4) 2.0 4 cyl., 157,000 miles, which has also been great, albeit I haven't had it very long. I picked it up on a whim for very little money and was expecting a nightmare, but other than a few things to get it 100% it's been great. It needed new ignition coil, plugs, rear brakes (calipers, rotors, pads), belt, thermostat, fluids and filters and that's all.

For the most part, a car is a car - American, Japanese, German, etc. If somebody is looking for the least maintenance, and Toyota or Honda are usually really good in that area, but I've had really good luck with a bunch of German cars, and if you're handy and willing to do a little research, there are a lot of really interesting German cars out there for you to enjoy. I think a lot of the e46 s have the same engine, M54 I think, that my e60 has, and that is a really good thing. Someone here mentioned it being one of the best i6s out there; not sure if that's true, but I can tell you first hand it's been fantastic for me. The i6 in the old e30 is also a great solid, very dependable engine too!

Good luck.
 
Originally Posted by ram_man
Well everyone I can work on the car myself and I want something enthusiast minded I found a one owner 01 6cyl 2.8 Jetta how are they?


The Mk4 Golf/Jetta is one of the worst cars ever made, possibly even worse than the BMW you are/were considering.

You should consider an RSX or EP3 Civic Si. The EP3 was made in England, possibly the most reliable British car ever sold here.

If you need 4 doors, the Matrix XRS/Vibe GT is a good choice. 8200-rpm redline for lots of fun. Actually, even an Echo with a manual transmission isn't bad at all. Light, tossable, and reasonably zippy, plus you get the classic Toyota reliability and low running costs
smile.gif


The Suzuki Aerio SX is also a fun sporty reliable hatchback, and it even came with a cool digital dash
 
Originally Posted by slacktide_bitog
Originally Posted by ram_man
Well everyone I can work on the car myself and I want something enthusiast minded I found a one owner 01 6cyl 2.8 Jetta how are they?


The Mk4 Golf/Jetta is one of the worst cars ever made, possibly even worse than the BMW you are/were considering.

You should consider an RSX or EP3 Civic Si. The EP3 was made in England, possibly the most reliable British car ever sold here.

If you need 4 doors, the Matrix XRS/Vibe GT is a good choice. 8200-rpm redline for lots of fun. Actually, even an Echo with a manual transmission isn't bad at all. Light, tossable, and reasonably zippy, plus you get the classic Toyota reliability and low running costs
smile.gif


The Suzuki Aerio SX is also a fun sporty reliable hatchback, and it even came with a cool digital dash


What is so bad about the golf and the Jetta?
 
Originally Posted by Vaca

For the most part, a car is a car - American, Japanese, German, etc. If somebody is looking for the least maintenance, and Toyota or Honda are usually really good in that area, but I've had really good luck with a bunch of German cars, and if you're handy and willing to do a little research, there are a lot of really interesting German cars out there for you to enjoy. I think a lot of the e46 s have the same engine, M54 I think, that my e60 has, and that is a really good thing. Someone here mentioned it being one of the best i6s out there; not sure if that's true, but I can tell you first hand it's been fantastic for me. The i6 in the old e30 is also a great solid, very dependable engine too!


Agreed. I prefer small RWD cars and small SUVs with rear-biased AWD- and the Germans do the best job at building machines fitting those templates. That said, I'll consider cars from any country if they are sufficiently entertaining. When I leave work I cannot imagine having to take the wheel of some anodyne transportation pod. To quote fellow Kentuckian David E. Davis Jr., "Life is too short to drive boring cars."
 
As the owner of a 20 yeat old BMW, I will say this: As long as there are no identifiable major issues, an older model is definitely worth consideration. There is one caveat, and that is if you don't do any maintenance or repair work yourself be prepared to spend some money.

BMW cars probably need a bit more repair than some, but that's probably due to all the gizmos and over-engineering they were designed with. That said, in my experience they don't need repairs that much more than a similarly aged japanese car. Parts, if you buy from someplace like fcp are very similarly priced as other makes. Whats more, in many cases the components are a better/sturdier design than a japanese or american counterpart.

Finally, I've found my M52tu engine to actually be one of the easiest to work on (and I'm not an expert mechanic). Plenty of access and room under the hood. There are a ton of internet resources for DIY repairs. I've replaced the entire cooling system, vanos seals, oil filter housing gasket, a window regulator, rear shocks and subframe bushings at a total cost to me of well less than $2500 (in over 15 years of ownership) If I'd had to have paid a mechanic to do the work, I wouldn't have kept the car. I'm glad I've been able to keep it - it's a solid and competent vehicle to pilot.

Any old car is going to need occasional repair, and paying someone to do that work is expensive.
 
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by ram_man
https://stlouis.craigslist.org/cto/d/saint-louis-passat-18t-manual/6822129445.html

Opinions on this Passat please


Here's a rather amusing thread on that engine:
https://www.ericthecarguy.com/kunen...ailures/59539-audi-vw-1-8t-engine-sludge

Had that car with that engine.
Two things:
1. It is prone to sludge, BUT only in the US and primarily pre-2001 models.
VW wanted to simplify maintenance, so they told owners: use any oil as long as it is 5W30, 10W30 or 5W40. No indication whether it should be synthetic or not. At the same time, they told European owners that they MUST use VW502.00 oil which is by default 0/5W40 (or rarely 10W40) or thick 0/5W30 (HTHS above 3.5).
In 2001 VW/Audi issued bulletin to US dealerships: Only VW502.00 to be used with larger oil filter.
That is B5.5 version which means it suppose to have steady diet of VW502.00 oil. One might say any synthetic: Nope, my friends Audi A4 bombed at 80k with diet of M1 5W30 that you can get in Wal mart.
My experience was: I got one with 40k. Used strictly German Castrol 0W30 (back in the days when it was green, and then moved to amber color). Occasionally I would try M1 0W40 (noisier), Castrol 5W40 (lifter noise after 4k, due to oil) or Pennzoil Ultra 5W40. I traded in car for VW cc with some 110k, and engine was in pristine condition. No single trace of sludge.
2. Chain. That engine has belt and chain in the back. Chain will start to rattle, but it is not uber expensive.

That Passat is probably best made Passat ever. It has longitudinal engine and it is basically Audi underneath. It is super solid car, and 1.8T is better choice than 2.8 V6. If you can find one in good condition, get it.
 
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by ram_man
https://stlouis.craigslist.org/cto/d/saint-louis-passat-18t-manual/6822129445.html

Opinions on this Passat please


Here's a rather amusing thread on that engine:
https://www.ericthecarguy.com/kunen...ailures/59539-audi-vw-1-8t-engine-sludge

Had that car with that engine.
Two things:
1. It is prone to sludge, BUT only in the US and primarily pre-2001 models.
VW wanted to simplify maintenance, so they told owners: use any oil as long as it is 5W30, 10W30 or 5W40. No indication whether it should be synthetic or not. At the same time, they told European owners that they MUST use VW502.00 oil which is by default 0/5W40 (or rarely 10W40) or thick 0/5W30 (HTHS above 3.5).
In 2001 VW/Audi issued bulletin to US dealerships: Only VW502.00 to be used with larger oil filter.
That is B5.5 version which means it suppose to have steady diet of VW502.00 oil. One might say any synthetic: Nope, my friends Audi A4 bombed at 80k with diet of M1 5W30 that you can get in Wal mart.
My experience was: I got one with 40k. Used strictly German Castrol 0W30 (back in the days when it was green, and then moved to amber color). Occasionally I would try M1 0W40 (noisier), Castrol 5W40 (lifter noise after 4k, due to oil) or Pennzoil Ultra 5W40. I traded in car for VW cc with some 110k, and engine was in pristine condition. No single trace of sludge.
2. Chain. That engine has belt and chain in the back. Chain will start to rattle, but it is not uber expensive.

That Passat is probably best made Passat ever. It has longitudinal engine and it is basically Audi underneath. It is super solid car, and 1.8T is better choice than 2.8 V6. If you can find one in good condition, get it.



Is there anything I should look for or be aware of if I look at it? Anything to consider?
 
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