CH-4 & Ci-4 spec oils cause cyl glazing

[nqcairns]

Is this true? after reading on here about how good some of the synthetic oils are I decided to go with one for my first time ever, but then I found out about cylinder wall glazing.

The context it was put to me was one of these spec HD oils in a 90s model japanese diesel driven easily on the open road will cause glazing and if driven easily elsewhere it could cause glazing!!
any ideas?
Thanks,

nqcairns

[ November 21, 2005, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: nqcairns ]

 

[Master ACiD]

glazing doesnt happen in engines. glazing is only applicable to old fashoned drum brakes where the brake linings would get hot and detach from the shoe and stick to the drum friction area.

if glazing were to happen in an engine, i can not think of what matereal would be the the glaze for which we are typing about.

 

[Shannow]

Cylinder glazing was (duuno if still is) an issue ages ago...or maybe it's a myth that needs busting.

Castrol GTX was reputed to cause cylinder "glazing", which was described as deposits filling in the croshatch, leading to poor ring seal, and oil consumption.

Engines run hard didn't glaze, but light loads and GTX were reputed to be a recipe for disaster...much like synthetics.

I've dealt with a "glazed" engine. Nissan 720 ute with shocking compression and oil consumption. We pulled it to pices, and found a really glassy looking bore. The rings looked very good, and had great tension.

A "deglaze hone" (you can buy them) fixed it...or maybe it was new rings.

If you live in Cairns, I doubt that anything you do will be lightly loaded.

 

[tdi-rick]

I wish Doug was still posting on here, he could answer this very well, anyway...

Back in the bad old days, light loads and lots of idling would lead to bore glazing, and as Shannow said, the only fix was to de-glaze the bore mechanically, although I've heard of using some sort of solvent in the oil......(whats that stuff that comes from Queensland, Cost Effective Maintenance ???, I've never been game, sounds like a straight solvent, and anyway, I've never needed it)

I haven't heard of a glazed bore for ages, and the main claim to fame of CI-4 and CI-4+ oils is minimal or no bore glazing, just check out any PDS for them.
I've heard the same thing (changing from a 'conventional' CF-4 oil to a CI-4 synthetic will cause glazing) spruiked on a 4wd forum I post on by an 'expert', and I flatly asked for proof. None was forthcoming.

We have a Patrol with the TD42T engine, you can't get any more old school in diesel design than that, and have been using Delvac 1 for the last 75,000km (175,000km total km) and the engine is pulling stronger than ever, with no oil consumption at all.

 

[Master ACiD]

what is this "bore glazing is believed".

they dont know for sure?


i still dont believe in bore glazing. i know it isnt really youre job to convence me tdi-rick, but untill someone breaks off a chunk of bore glaze and has it analized, i just wont believe it exists.

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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how would the rings let somthing glaze a bore? they literally scrape the high spots off a cylinder bore. theres real friction on a cylinder bore, so deposits cant form even of they are everywhere else.

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Normally, rings are free to move slightly as they traverse up and down the bore, tilting a bit as they go. Gas pressure above the ring does a bit of tilting and forcing out as well.

Carbon formed behind the ring and in the ring groove doesn't allow the ring to flex or to move back into groove, hence this constant pressure on the bore, along with carbon surrounding the rings, causing wear.

So it is not the oil that causes carboning directly, it's the by-products of oil and fuel combustion.

 

[nqcairns]

Thanks for the replies, I personally believe in glazing for once as teenager I added one of the first "your engine will still run without oil" syrups in a bottle to my beloved (at the time) Mazda engine.
Within a fairly short period it was using buckets of oil, the mechanic at the time pulled the head and point blank asked if I had used this additive!! The bores were glazed in his opinion and the engine was in total a throw away proposition because the machinists would not work on a treated engine, too hard/slippery to cut!

This was the only real engine problem I have ever had and 'going back to the future' on my current engine would be horrible! they cost around $6000 USD to rebuild here if everything goes smoothly.

Rick it is the same engine as yours GQ 96 model but non turbo and the oil I was considering was also your oil-sounds like it may be a goer!
What price should I be paying for that stuff in OZ.
thanks nqcairns

 

[Gurkha]

I have been using Delo 400/Delvac Super in my now 268,000 miles old HINO 4 cylinder W04D engine which is fitted to a 69 replica Nissan Patrol made in India,absolutely no problems at all, engine runs as good as new and being a 11ton rated engine it runs at 1/4 load at the most, and that too under normal operating temps as it takes a while to reach there.

 

[Master ACiD]

how would the rings let somthing glaze a bore? they literally scrape the high spots off a cylinder bore. theres real friction on a cylinder bore, so deposits cant form even of they are everywhere else.

deposits never form where there is friction. on even the most sludged up engines you will never see deposits on the cylinder bores, the valve seats, the main and rod bearing film areas, and possibly the oil pump gear tooth faces.

i think this is a myth that needs to be put to death.

doughnuts are glazed, old fashoned drum brakes can somtimes be glazed, cylinders? nahhhh...

 

[1040 WreckerMan]

I have seen long haul trucks glaze/polish the bores many times. Until the last few years it was common practice to idle the truck when the drive was asleep. These long idle hours cause several problems.

The first is inadequate bore lubrication due to low crank splash.

Also, low engine temps are a problem since idling a diesel cools the engine/combustion/coolant/exhaust temps significantly.

Piston rings are partly sealed by compression, and in a diesel (esp. a HDD engine) there is very little compression force on the rings at idle (i.e. no turbo boost/low RPM). This seems to lead to a condition where the oil is wiped off with the compression rings as well as the oil control ring (remember the low lube mentioned above); after enough time there is little to no oil left to keep the cylinder separated from the rings. The explanation that MolaKule gave also plays into effect in regard to ring problems contributing to glazing.

I have seen Series 60 Detroit Diesel engines (as well as CAT, Cummins, Navistar, etc.) need liner kits after only 100-200K miles due to cylinder glazing. The one thing that ALL of these engines had in common was long idle hours. In my experience these engines, with regular maintenance, can easily go 1 million miles. Not more than a few months ago I had a Series 60 apart with 1,267,000 miles that still had a good cylinder finish. This engine was never idled for more than about 15 minuets and always had the engine heater plugged in.

CH-4/+ oils may help this condition, but it will not totally eliminate it, IMO. If the liner are still in the iron dumpster I’ll see if I can take a picture a glazed liner and then a new one from stock and post those for comparison.

Patrick

 

[tdi-rick]

From the Caltex Australia (Texaco/Chevron) website.....

quote:

---

Bore Glazing
A phenomenon that results in loss of oil consumption control. Bore glazing as contrasted to bore polishing is characterised by a deposit or coating on the bore/liner of the engine. Bore glazing is believed to occur at low speed and light load operations.

Bore Polishing
Characterised by a clearly defined area of bright mirror finish on the cylinder bore. It is caused by local mechanical wear of the surface, resulting in loss of oil consumption control. Believed to be brought about by build up of carbon deposits in the ring area.

---

 

[tdi-rick]

quote:

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Rick it is the same engine as yours GQ 96 model but non turbo and the oil I was considering was also your oil-sounds like it may be a goer!

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Mate, check out the UOA here http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=26;t=000229

I'm paying $190/20 litres from the Mobil distributor in Tamworth. Apparently this is a very, very good price for Oz, even though it is their standard, across the counter price. I'm also using a Donaldson Synteq oil filter for the full flow one, pt. # P169071. This is equivalent of a Ryco Z9 (I know, it's the wrong filter, but its efficiency and capacity leave the correct, non-internal by-pass cellulose media versions for dead

) and an OE Nissan filter for the combo one.

 

[Shannow]

Local bloke sells D-1 for $56 for 5 litres, versus $67 for the normal Mobil 1s.

 

[nqcairns]

Those prices are good! The best here (so far)is $250 for 20L. At least now I know what price to aspire to for D1!

Rick thanks for the great info on this trucks engine filters very much appreciated, I will look for that Donaldson tomorrow.
I have been busy reading the bypass filter section here with the view to fitting one, although after your UOA numbers I am doubting the need, these TD engines must be fairly kind or is it really the oil.

Thanks to all the replys I will delegate the risk of glazing with these oils to where it belongs, cannot understand why people would throw stuff like that up - just for!

cheers nqcairns

[ November 23, 2005, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: nqcairns ]

 

[Leo]

Well I picked up Delvac 1 from Motrex for $49 for the 5L bottle...

 

[Curious Kid]

1040 WreckerMan - Like to see the pic's if you are able.

Thanks guys.

 

[Extreme-Duty]

Interesting, I have never heard about liner glazing before, but I know polishing! I learn a lot from you guys!

Please take a look at the:
Perkins Oil Requirements

It is said that for example the 700 Series uses "Not less than API CC", and: "CD can be used but is not recommended for the first 25 to 50 hours, or for light load applications".

Something similar is required for some of the non-current engines listed.

Is Perkins afraid of glazing when using newer/higher API-ratings?

 

[oil&coffee]

so - I have a dodge 2004 cummins! are you telling me if I use something like schaeffers syn. diesel oil and don't tow I can have problems using a syn??

I am new here and from first looks - it looks like the normal around here - is people say using syn. oil over dino oil can cause problems you would not think of!!

 

[bluepp]

Well bless my sole ,I never heard of a mechanic that didnt believe in cylinder glazing. Its not something stuck on the cylinder walls , its the wall getting too smooth before the rings seat. And the rings dont seat. Quik fix -- ( if your lucky )one tablespoon of bakeing soda in each sparkplug hole and fire that puppy up . If that didnt work You deglazed the jugs, with a hone and rering the motor. Boy you kids better go back to school.

 

[salesrep]

quote:

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I have a dodge 2004 cummins! are you telling me if I use something like schaeffers syn. diesel oil and don't tow I can have problems using a syn??

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No. In fact schaeffers 9000 and 700 will reduce bore glazing