Cermax 0w20 observations (More like an 0w16?)

[Klumas]

Hello, this is my first post here, but I've been a long time lurker on the forum. Basically I was looking at the stats of many different oils, 0w16 and 0w20, for my 2003 civic hybrid. It doesn't burn oil and has been on 0w20 full syn it's whole life, except one change with Honda Ultra Next. I'm just curious about oils, and not trying to accomplish anything by switching except for maybe some minor increases in fuel economy. I noticed that the stats of Cermax 0w20 seem closer to that of an 0w16 then that of other 0w20s.

Here is a spreadsheet with some basic stats I was able to find:

Oil Brand Type cst@40C cst@100C VI HTHS NOACK ******I can't get this spreadsheet formatted correctly when I post.
Ravenol 0w16 38.36 7.24 156 2.4 8.2
Citgo 0w16 37 7.2 160 2.3 *
Eneos 0w16 35.9 7 161 2.3 *
Penrite 0w16 39 7.6 167 2.3 *
Mobil Super 0w16 31.2 7 196 2.3 *
Cermax 0w20 36.4 7.1 158 2.6 15
ENEOS Sustina 0w20 32.7 7.9 229 2.6 13
Amsoil SS 0w20 46.6 8.7 167 2.7 10
Mobile AFE 0w20 44.8 8.7 173 2.7
Redline 0w20 48 9.1 174 2.9 9
Pennzoil Ultra 0w20 46.3 8.8 172 2.6 *
Royal Purple 0w20 42.58 8.37 177 2.6 *

*No HTHS Available/ Minimum to meet spec

As the grade gets lower, it looks like the general trend is lower and lower VI. I've read on here that VI is not the ultimate indicator of oil quality that some seem to think, but that HTHS is the most important spec for engine protection. Comparing the Cermax 0w20 to Eneos 0w16, they look remarkably similar except for the HTHS. As an 0w20 goes the Cermax has an even lower cst@100 then Sustina 0w20. The NOACK seems a bit high, which is interesting because they market it as an oil that will last 30,000 miles(not going to try that). Does a higher NOACK make much of a difference over a 7k-10k OCI?

Anyways what do you guys think? The website is shady as [censored], and they are pushing some miracle engine treatment; but is this oil going to give the economy of an 0w16 with the integrity of an 0w20? Does the low VI matter that much?

Here is the page for the oil in questions: https://www.cermastore.com/max-0w20-synthetic-motor-oil.html there is a tab with the technical specs.

PS: If I'm misrepresenting or not understanding anything please let me know.

 

[Klumas]

OilBrand-------Type----cst@40C-----cst@100C--VI-----HTHS----NOACK
Ravenol--------0w16----38.36-------7.24------156----2.4-----8.2
Citgo----------0w16----37----------7.2-------160----2.3 *
Eneos---------0w16----35.9--------7---------161----2.3 *
Penrite---------0w16----39----------7.6-------167----2.3 *
Mobil Super-----0w16----31.2--------7---------196----2.3 *
Cermax---------0w20----36.4--------7.1-------158----2.6-----15
ENEOS Sustina---0w20----32.7--------7.9-------229----2.6-----13
Amsoil SS-------0w20----46.6--------8.7-------167----2.7-----10
Mobile AFE------0w20----44.8--------8.7-------173----2.7
Redline---------0w20----48----------9.1-------174----2.9-----9
Pennzoil Ultra----0w20----46.3--------8.8-------172----2.6 *
Royal Purple-----0w20----42.58-------8.37------177----2.6 *

*No HTHS Available/ Minimum to meet spec

 

[901Memphis]

As long as the NOACK is within spec I wouldn't worry about it, it's a very difficult test and under 15% is perfectly acceptable.

I don't trust any of these over priced unknown oils, if I wanted boutique oil I'll use Amsoil otherwise I stick to the major players like Mobil, Castrol and Pennzoil.

VI isn't a deciding factor die me anymore, lower VI doesn't hurt, although some people live or die by it.

If you look at sae j300 there is overlap for kinematic viscosity between 16 and 20 grades, with the HTHS being the determining factor on label grade.

 

[Klumas]

Thanks for the reply. I think I may just order some and get a VOA, I have an unused Blackstone kit laying around. My main interest is just how low the viscosity is. From what I've read the fuel saving would be pretty small, but I sure am curious.

 

[Jetronic]

It's the HTHS value that dictates the amount of fuel saved, especially in a warm engine. Being a 0w20, the minimum HTHS is higher than the 0w16 offer. On a cold engine, it's both the HTHS viscosity and the viscosity index which is important to save fuel.

I wouldn't bother with the Cermax if fuel saving was my goal. How hard is it to get the Eneos 0w16, or any other on your list?

 

[Klumas]

Well, I'd rather stay within the recommended specs for my car, but Ravenol is probably the easiest 0w16 for me to get. I'm curious about the 0w16s, but I'm still more comfortable using an 0w20.

If the HTHS is the overriding indicator of fuel economy, what about the cst@40 and cst@100 for oils with close to the same HTHS?

Take these oils for example:
OilBrand-------Type----cst@40C-----cst@100C--VI-----HTHS-
GTX Magnatec---0w20----44.4--------9.1-------192----2.6
Cermax---------0w20----36.4--------7.1-------158----2.6
Ravenol--------0w16----38.36-------7.24------156----2.4

Castrol has a much higher VI then the Cerma but also much higher cst@40-100, would the differences in fuel efficiency be negligible, or non existent? And if the HTHS is lower, but the cst@40-100c is higher, what does that mean?

 

[901Memphis]

Sometimes oils with certain types of base oils retain a higher HTHS viscosity independent of the kinematic viscosity similarities...

Take a look at Redline products, their 0w20 has an HTHSV of 2.9 with a KV100 at 9.1, which means it's really pushing into 5w30 territory.

https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=124&pcid=21

They also have even thinner race oils that follow nonsense sae grade designations, which you could probably get away with experimenting with.


https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=12&pcid=1

 

[901Memphis]

Also if you like interesting experiments check out this thread

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2889953/1

 

[Klumas]

Ah man that was like a GOT Episode, it sucks that they haven't commented again. Those Redline racing oils are really interesting, I just wish they posted the HTHS. Can BlackStone test for HTHS? I also ordered some Cermax 0w20. Mostly I just wanted to try something that there isn't much information on, I'll do a VOA when I get it in. Don't laugh, but I also ordered some of their extremely expensive sketchy engine treatment. I realize that it's (probably) a waste of money, might even harm my engine, but again I want to test something that there isn't much information on. Curiosity killed the car......maybe that's what happened to that other guy....

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: Klumas
Well, I'd rather stay within the recommended specs for my car, but Ravenol is probably the easiest 0w16 for me to get. I'm curious about the 0w16s, but I'm still more comfortable using an 0w20.

If the HTHS is the overriding indicator of fuel economy, what about the cst@40 and cst@100 for oils with close to the same HTHS?

Take these oils for example:
OilBrand-------Type----cst@40C-----cst@100C--VI-----HTHS-
GTX Magnatec---0w20----44.4--------9.1-------192----2.6
Cermax---------0w20----36.4--------7.1-------158----2.6
Ravenol--------0w16----38.36-------7.24------156----2.4

Castrol has a much higher VI then the Cerma but also much higher cst@40-100, would the differences in fuel efficiency be negligible, or non existent? And if the HTHS is lower, but the cst@40-100c is higher, what does that mean?


Castrol has a habit of declaring only the minimum allowed values for the grade for things like HTHS viscosity. In reality the Castrol likely has a 2.7 cP viscosity. Or they are using another Viscosity Improvement polymer like Shellvis, which pumps up the kinematic viscosity more, but has more temporary shear effects.

The Ravenol is using a very stable viscosity improver, or none at all. In any event, it's behaving like a newtonian fluid when crunching the numbers. No shear thinning is going to happen.

KV is of minor importance, in my opinion sufficiently high KV can help to keep oil pressure upwhen the engine oil gets very hot but you're not likely to be racing your hybrid, are you?

 

[901Memphis]

Blackstone doesn't test for HTHS, here is a attachment with everything they can do.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Klumas
Anyways what do you guys think?

Running a completely uncertified oil using incorrect grade designations purchased from a website full of rock stupid statements that appears to be built by a 16 year old...

Worthless testimonials and random pictures of women and dudes giving the "thumbs up"...

Thinking a VOA is going to make it come clear...

Yep.

 

[Klumas]

Thanks for the chart 901Memphis

Originally Posted By: Jetronic

KV is of minor importance, in my opinion sufficiently high KV can help to keep oil pressure upwhen the engine oil gets very hot but you're not likely to be racing your hybrid, are you?

Well it's a manual so it's a bit more spirited, but no racing. Basically I drive 90% in the city, and I live in Seattle, which is pretty hilly. First thing in the morning with little warming up, I'm climbing up a couple steep hills in 2nd, then the same thing on the way back home.

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Klumas
Anyways what do you guys think?

Running a completely uncertified oil using incorrect grade designations purchased from a website full of rock stupid statements that appears to be built by a 16 year old...

Worthless testimonials and random pictures of women and dudes giving the "thumbs up"...

Thinking a VOA is going to make it come clear...

Yep.


I laughed when I saw your post because I had just read the recent thread on Microgreen Filters. The way I heard about this oil was when a guy posted about getting a brochure for it in his order from Microgreen filters. Both Companies make claims about 30,000 mile OCIs......gives me an idea.....

I don't think a VOA is going to make everything clear, but it's still going to be interesting. Yeah it might be stupid, but nobody I can find has tried this stuff. If it makes your engine fall out, at least it will be known.