Ceramic Grease For Brakes??

[Bailes1992]

I don't believe Granville products are available in the US so you may struggle to get information here.

I've used a fair few products of theirs over the years with no issues though.

 

[ZZZRSC]

I've worked on a lot of brakes over the years, but mostly in US made cars and trucks. But I can answer your BMW question. Most vehicles have hardened steel pins and cast iron calipers with drilled holes for the pins to slide in. They have rubber seals near the head to keep water and dirt out. One of the top causes of brake repairs (not counting worn pads, warped/scored rotors, and ABS/hydraulic problems) is seized slide pins. Since both parts contain iron they will both rust together (although the hardened pins rust more slowly). They will always get moisture in them over time, and dust and grit if the seals are worn. They MUST be greased unless the manufacturer says otherwise. The Manufacturer is always right. Usually. The grease should be a non-petroleum base such as silicone (aka dielectric), since rubber is petroleum based and will absorb certain chemicals in the grease and will soften and swell, which leads to failure.

The reason BMW and a few others do not need grease is because they use a more expensive system of self lubricating bronze bushings and stainless steel pins. Neither material will ever rust. The only thing that will cause them to seize up is if they are greased and the grease attracts and holds grit (especially silica dust from sand, which is harder than most steels) and the grease/grit creates a very solid material as the VOC's evaporate from the grease over time. The same goes for plastic bushings, no grease or oil, they are self lubricating.

I would not use the grease you have on any brakes unless you can find literature that states it is safe for slide pins and rubber parts. I use CRC brand Brake & Caliper Grease which states on the bottle "Will not damage rubber or plastic components, freeze, melt, or wash out." and can be used on all areas on brakes "including caliper slides, bolts, and pins." Most auto parts places carry CRC products and can supply it. I get it from Auto Zone for $16/8 ounces. Be sure and use a thin layer on the pad ears where they slide in the channels. Remember, YouTube is your friend.

The majority of the time that brakes make a loud noise when applied is because the pads and rotors are glazed (a highly polished surface from wear). Often this can be corrected without a brake job. Search online for "Bedding Brakes" for instructions where you get on a deserted straight section of road and reach certain speeds and then brake firmly to lower speeds. It is not difficult and is completely safe to do, just make sure there are no other drivers around who may call 911 and report a possible DUI. Don't ask me how I know this.

 

[X15]

So far I never descried any 'Teflon lined' caliper pin or bushing.

That's what ATE says they are (see sidebar on the right), I also remember seeing a reference of their switch to 'low friction bushings' that are not to be lubricated, but I can't find it again.

 

[X15]

I realize the OP's post is about BMW but the point I was making is in many cases, the parts maker (in this case, ATE) supplies the same designs to various automakers and some say lube the pins and others don't say anything. Similar to ZF transmissions where ZF says replace the ATF every so often but some automakers say it's a "lifetime" fluid.

ATE seems to make it very clear to automakers that their pins are not to be lubed, there's certainly some generic instructions out there that call for lubing pins, but any that are specific to ATE calipers say not to do it. Newer Hondas that use ATE calipers for example all say not to lubricate those pins, they also insist that Plastilube is the product that must be used on pad backings.

 

[kschachn]

The reason BMW and a few others do not need grease is because they use a more expensive system of self lubricating bronze bushings and stainless steel pins. Neither material will ever rust. The only thing that will cause them to seize up is if they are greased and the grease attracts and holds grit (especially silica dust from sand, which is harder than most steels) and the grease/grit creates a very solid material as the VOC's evaporate from the grease over time. The same goes for plastic bushings, no grease or oil, they are self lubricating.

No, my BMW and a lot of others do not have bronze bushings. In fact other than some aftermarket kits I've never seen any that do, but I'm not a BMW mechanic.

 

[Carmudgeon]

This is where I got the info saying ATE markets a product for the slide pins. Interestingly enough, the tech sheet does not refer to the slide pins though.

ATE Plastiliube Brake Lubricant

ATE Plastilube Brake Lubricant, the best choice for noise-free brakes. ATE Plastilube provides long-lasting protection and reduces maintenance frequency for brakes. Plastilube provides an exceptionally long service life, to keep all moving parts lubricated and in smooth operation, regardless of...

www.ate-na.com

I realize the OP's post is about BMW but the point I was making is in many cases, the parts maker (in this case, ATE) supplies the same designs to various automakers and some say lube the pins and others don't say anything. Similar to ZF transmissions where ZF says replace the ATF every so often but some automakers say it's a "lifetime" fluid.

No doubt there are conflicting positions, with the NA page citing caliper pins, while the German page does not.

But ultimately, I think it's important to remember that while it's an ATE-branded grease, and aimed at the European auto parts market where their product is common, there is also nothing explicitily put forth that it's exclusively for use in those situations.

As a general purpose brake grease, used in metal-to-metal applications, it's entirely fine, and appropriate. While less common, ATE has also produced fixed calipers as well, that don't employ the rubber guide bushings that their more popular floating caliper designs do.

It's up to the user to put their thinking caps on, heed the instructions on the tube, and use accordingly, with the OEM's guidelines in mind as well.

With BMWs, this is one of those topics that's a healthy debate, but requires a little more criticial thinking. The question also comes up with regard to anti-seize on spark plugs as well, and in that case BMW, NGK and Bosch are unequivocal in specifying dry plugs.

 

[930.engineering]

That's what ATE says they are (see sidebar on the right), I also remember seeing a reference of their switch to 'low friction bushings' that are not to be lubricated, but I can't find it again.

Thanks. I'd guess it's a good idea use original Ate bushings as
cheap Chinese replacements probably won't use a Teflon lining.
However, Ate says not to lube them. That's obviously why it's
Ate uses Teflon.
.

 

[930.engineering]

No, my BMW and a lot of others do not have bronze bushings. In fact other than some aftermarket kits I've never seen any that do, but I'm not a BMW mechanic.

Yes, that's why I said some BMW use TRW calipers and some
use Ate calipers (not to mention some Brembo fixed ones):

It depends on if this BMW uses Ate or TRW calipers.
Ate: plastic bushes, no lube. TRW: metal bushes: lube!

 

[Jetronic]

Always had success with TRW calipers, build quality is excellent. Pads were good too, they still may be but I haven't used them for a few years now.

Not ever had anything with ATE calipers to work on.

 

[vavavroom]

Just curious, but I suspect BMW sources brake calipers from someone and do other automakers that use the same brakes say to lube the slide pins ?


I wonder if putting something in those locations is a "just in case" thing 'cause the only reason I'd think there would be noise is if the pads are slightly loose and have wiggle room and that allows metal-on-metal noise. I recall that Wagner says NOT to put anything on the backs of the pads, at least on their ThermoQuiet line.

It's comical. When I bought OEM pads for my BMW they came with a little pouch of lube for the slide pins. The service manual said to not use lube on the slide pins. Taking off the OEM calipers, I found lube on the slide pins. So which is it? Lube or no lube? I believe no lube is probably better than too much lube but I also don't believe in ramming an unlubed pin into an unlubed guide. Apologies. I have been using a minimal amount of lube that makes the assembly go smoothly. The calipers that call for no lube have well-sealed guides. There shouldn't be any dirt ingress over time. I have seen hardened brake grease on slide pins and in the guides and that's not a good thing. I put a very thin coating of Sil Glyde on each pin and guide bushings.

 

[vavavroom]

There are different kinds of Plastilube for different uses.

 

[Hall]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, my wife's Fusion has ATE calipers so next time I do a brake check-up, I'm considering cleaning the slide pins off of all lube and running them that way.

 

[ZZZRSC]

No, my BMW and a lot of others do not have bronze bushings. In fact other than some aftermarket kits I've never seen any that do, but I'm not a BMW mechanic.

I did not mean to indicate that all BMW's have bronze bushings, as designs change almost every year. Bushings (if they have them) can be steel, bronze, iron/copper, SS, or zinc. They also can have embeded oil, PTFE, or graphite. Most vehicles do not have them.

What I did say is: "The Manufacturer is always right." I say that not because they make the best decisions, but because your business might be legally liable if you do not follow their instructions and a failure or accident occurs. You have to use your best judgement in a case like that.