Assuming no irregular tread wear, what causes some tires to get noisier with age? I have a set of Nitto snows on and they have suddenly gotten much louder, particularly left front. At first they developed a low buzz / hum, which I would kind of expect given the soft chunky tread pattern. But now they are just loud almost like a scraping sound and its pitch varies with speed. I can't see anything wrong with the tire. Is there something I should do to further test the tire, and how much concern should I have? I have never heard a tire anywhere near this loud. Its on an 05 Civic which has basically no sound insulation but it still seems unreasonably loud.
Cause of tire noise
- Thread starter dlayman
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I believe the rubber in the carcass is different than the rubber on the wearing part of the tire. Once it wears down, the noisy stuff comes into play.
The way you describe it, though, I would check the wheel bearing on that corner of the car. What you describe sounds like a bad wheel bearing. Swapping the tires around will tell you if the sound goes with the tire, or is the bearing. Good Luck.
The way you describe it, though, I would check the wheel bearing on that corner of the car. What you describe sounds like a bad wheel bearing. Swapping the tires around will tell you if the sound goes with the tire, or is the bearing. Good Luck.
here is my understanding:
1. aggressive block pattern (should be always noisy)
2. abnormal wear from bad alignment or lack of rotations (gradually gets worse)
3. tread separation (sudden change)
4. "slipped"/broken/defective belts (still fuzzy about this one)
1. aggressive block pattern (should be always noisy)
2. abnormal wear from bad alignment or lack of rotations (gradually gets worse)
3. tread separation (sudden change)
4. "slipped"/broken/defective belts (still fuzzy about this one)
Less tread depth results in less cushioning rubber. As rubber ages it tends to get harder. ed
Thanks for the input.
The fact that this happened rather suddenly has me concerned about the internals of the tire. I can't see any bulges of damage on the tread or sidewalls. Should I get the tire dismounted to be inspected - would that be able to find a bad belt or separation?
The fact that this happened rather suddenly has me concerned about the internals of the tire. I can't see any bulges of damage on the tread or sidewalls. Should I get the tire dismounted to be inspected - would that be able to find a bad belt or separation?
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
I believe the rubber in the carcass is different than the rubber on the wearing part of the tire. Once it wears down, the noisy stuff comes into play.
The way you describe it, though, I would check the wheel bearing on that corner of the car. What you describe sounds like a bad wheel bearing. Swapping the tires around will tell you if the sound goes with the tire, or is the bearing. Good Luck.
That's a good idea. It could be wheel bearing. It doesn't quite sound like that, but its definitely a possibility.
I believe the rubber in the carcass is different than the rubber on the wearing part of the tire. Once it wears down, the noisy stuff comes into play.
The way you describe it, though, I would check the wheel bearing on that corner of the car. What you describe sounds like a bad wheel bearing. Swapping the tires around will tell you if the sound goes with the tire, or is the bearing. Good Luck.
That's a good idea. It could be wheel bearing. It doesn't quite sound like that, but its definitely a possibility.
Originally Posted By: dlayman
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
I believe the rubber in the carcass is different than the rubber on the wearing part of the tire. Once it wears down, the noisy stuff comes into play.
The way you describe it, though, I would check the wheel bearing on that corner of the car. What you describe sounds like a bad wheel bearing. Swapping the tires around will tell you if the sound goes with the tire, or is the bearing. Good Luck.
That's a good idea. It could be wheel bearing. It doesn't quite sound like that, but its definitely a possibility.
IMHO, there is no way to separate tire noise from bearing noise by sound alone, they can be same/similar. If it varies in turns, it's a bearing, if not, it's tire(s).
When more than 1 tire is noisy, swapping tires doesn't do much either.
Best is take the wheel off and examine bearing for noise, vibration, and movement.
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
I believe the rubber in the carcass is different than the rubber on the wearing part of the tire. Once it wears down, the noisy stuff comes into play.
The way you describe it, though, I would check the wheel bearing on that corner of the car. What you describe sounds like a bad wheel bearing. Swapping the tires around will tell you if the sound goes with the tire, or is the bearing. Good Luck.
That's a good idea. It could be wheel bearing. It doesn't quite sound like that, but its definitely a possibility.
IMHO, there is no way to separate tire noise from bearing noise by sound alone, they can be same/similar. If it varies in turns, it's a bearing, if not, it's tire(s).
When more than 1 tire is noisy, swapping tires doesn't do much either.
Best is take the wheel off and examine bearing for noise, vibration, and movement.
Your description sounds more like a bearing.. but you will be able to find out if you just swap your tire with another one on your car and see if the noise persists.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: dlayman
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
I believe the rubber in the carcass is different than the rubber on the wearing part of the tire. Once it wears down, the noisy stuff comes into play.
The way you describe it, though, I would check the wheel bearing on that corner of the car. What you describe sounds like a bad wheel bearing. Swapping the tires around will tell you if the sound goes with the tire, or is the bearing. Good Luck.
That's a good idea. It could be wheel bearing. It doesn't quite sound like that, but its definitely a possibility.
IMHO, there is no way to separate tire noise from bearing noise by sound alone, they can be same/similar. If it varies in turns, it's a bearing, if not, it's tire(s).
When more than 1 tire is noisy, swapping tires doesn't do much either.
Best is take the wheel off and examine bearing for noise, vibration, and movement.
I agree with you. It's hard to pinpoint noise from those areas. I'd remove tire and check wheel bearing play. And maybe spin it and see if there is grinding.
Originally Posted By: dlayman
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
I believe the rubber in the carcass is different than the rubber on the wearing part of the tire. Once it wears down, the noisy stuff comes into play.
The way you describe it, though, I would check the wheel bearing on that corner of the car. What you describe sounds like a bad wheel bearing. Swapping the tires around will tell you if the sound goes with the tire, or is the bearing. Good Luck.
That's a good idea. It could be wheel bearing. It doesn't quite sound like that, but its definitely a possibility.
IMHO, there is no way to separate tire noise from bearing noise by sound alone, they can be same/similar. If it varies in turns, it's a bearing, if not, it's tire(s).
When more than 1 tire is noisy, swapping tires doesn't do much either.
Best is take the wheel off and examine bearing for noise, vibration, and movement.
I agree with you. It's hard to pinpoint noise from those areas. I'd remove tire and check wheel bearing play. And maybe spin it and see if there is grinding.
Doesn't seeem to get worse with turning, either way. Best description I can come up with is a kind of a roaring noise with something rubbing on top of that noise. Frequency of "rubbing" is proportional to speed. Doesn't seem to be any vibration in steering wheel.
How might I go about checking bearing? Can I just pull the tire and see if there is sideways or other play in the wheel? I'm thinking more and more it could be bearing. I hit a curb that was buried in snow at a pretty good clip a few weeks ago, bad enough I was surprised I didn't blow the tire. That's the tire/wheel where the noise is coming from. It didn't start immediately, about 2 weeks later. I've heard that kind of thing can damage a bearing. I probably need to do an alignment too.
The car has about 300k on it, so I hate to sink a bunch of money into it, but this could be a safety issue, so not much choice.
How might I go about checking bearing? Can I just pull the tire and see if there is sideways or other play in the wheel? I'm thinking more and more it could be bearing. I hit a curb that was buried in snow at a pretty good clip a few weeks ago, bad enough I was surprised I didn't blow the tire. That's the tire/wheel where the noise is coming from. It didn't start immediately, about 2 weeks later. I've heard that kind of thing can damage a bearing. I probably need to do an alignment too.
The car has about 300k on it, so I hate to sink a bunch of money into it, but this could be a safety issue, so not much choice.
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Originally Posted By: dlayman
Doesn't seeem to get worse with turning, either way.
sounds like tire
Originally Posted By: dlayman
How might I go about checking bearing? Can I just pull the tire and see if there is sideways or other play in the wheel?
yes, but even better, spin the tire and hear for noise and feel for vibrations.
Originally Posted By: dlayman
I hit a curb that was buried in snow at a pretty good clip a few weeks ago, bad enough I was surprised I didn't blow the tire. That's the tire/wheel where the noise is coming from.
I'm thinking you have tire belt damage right here. you should have mentioned that in the first place.
Doesn't seeem to get worse with turning, either way.
sounds like tire
Originally Posted By: dlayman
How might I go about checking bearing? Can I just pull the tire and see if there is sideways or other play in the wheel?
yes, but even better, spin the tire and hear for noise and feel for vibrations.
Originally Posted By: dlayman
I hit a curb that was buried in snow at a pretty good clip a few weeks ago, bad enough I was surprised I didn't blow the tire. That's the tire/wheel where the noise is coming from.
I'm thinking you have tire belt damage right here. you should have mentioned that in the first place.
Originally Posted By: dlayman
Assuming no irregular tread wear, what causes some tires to get noisier with age? I have a set of Nitto snows on and they have suddenly gotten much louder, particularly left front.
I haven't seen your tires but I'd bet $50.00 that there is indeed some irregular tire wear.
And it is caused by suspension/alignment issue(s).
I went through this situation with the original tires on my Uplander.
Assuming no irregular tread wear, what causes some tires to get noisier with age? I have a set of Nitto snows on and they have suddenly gotten much louder, particularly left front.
I haven't seen your tires but I'd bet $50.00 that there is indeed some irregular tire wear.
And it is caused by suspension/alignment issue(s).
I went through this situation with the original tires on my Uplander.
Originally Posted By: Papa Bear
Originally Posted By: dlayman
Assuming no irregular tread wear, what causes some tires to get noisier with age? I have a set of Nitto snows on and they have suddenly gotten much louder, particularly left front.
I haven't seen your tires but I'd bet $50.00 that there is indeed some irregular tire wear.
And it is caused by suspension/alignment issue(s).
I went through this situation with the original tires on my Uplander.
Well, if there is any irregular wear, I can't see it. My all-season Michelins have 75k on them, down to 4/32,and have worn nearly perfectly evenly. The winter tires on now also seem to be wearing evenly and I can't detect anything at all on the tire in question.
I'm really thinking it's the bearing as I'm starting to hear some metallic noise. In any event, it's next drive is to a trusted shop to find the problem, because it's gotten so bad so quickly, I don't feel comfortable driving it. I also am going to get it aligned due to the curb incident I had a couple weeks ago.
Originally Posted By: dlayman
Assuming no irregular tread wear, what causes some tires to get noisier with age? I have a set of Nitto snows on and they have suddenly gotten much louder, particularly left front.
I haven't seen your tires but I'd bet $50.00 that there is indeed some irregular tire wear.
And it is caused by suspension/alignment issue(s).
I went through this situation with the original tires on my Uplander.
Well, if there is any irregular wear, I can't see it. My all-season Michelins have 75k on them, down to 4/32,and have worn nearly perfectly evenly. The winter tires on now also seem to be wearing evenly and I can't detect anything at all on the tire in question.
I'm really thinking it's the bearing as I'm starting to hear some metallic noise. In any event, it's next drive is to a trusted shop to find the problem, because it's gotten so bad so quickly, I don't feel comfortable driving it. I also am going to get it aligned due to the curb incident I had a couple weeks ago.
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Originally Posted By: dlayman
I hit a curb that was buried in snow at a pretty good clip a few weeks ago, bad enough I was surprised I didn't blow the tire. That's the tire/wheel where the noise is coming from.
I'm thinking you have tire belt damage right here. you should have mentioned that in the first place. [/quote]
Possibly. Because there were no symptoms right after, I thought there was no damage, and frankly I had forgotten about it. Could be it took a while for the damage to be apparent. It's heading into the shop tomorrow, and as part of the diagnosis I will have them swap the tire to another position, and see if the noise goes with it. No garage and just too cold dark and wet to mess with it tonight. I'll be driving my other vehicle until this is sorted out. Thanks for your input
I hit a curb that was buried in snow at a pretty good clip a few weeks ago, bad enough I was surprised I didn't blow the tire. That's the tire/wheel where the noise is coming from.
I'm thinking you have tire belt damage right here. you should have mentioned that in the first place. [/quote]
Possibly. Because there were no symptoms right after, I thought there was no damage, and frankly I had forgotten about it. Could be it took a while for the damage to be apparent. It's heading into the shop tomorrow, and as part of the diagnosis I will have them swap the tire to another position, and see if the noise goes with it. No garage and just too cold dark and wet to mess with it tonight. I'll be driving my other vehicle until this is sorted out. Thanks for your input
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Originally Posted By: dlayman
...At first they developed a low buzz / hum, which I would kind of expect given the soft chunky tread pattern. But now they are just loud almost like a scraping sound and its pitch varies with speed. I can't see anything wrong with the tire. Is there something I should do to further test the tire, and how much concern should I have? I have never heard a tire anywhere near this loud. Its on an 05 Civic which has basically no sound insulation but it still seems unreasonably loud.
The fact that you hit a curb hard, and the noise showed up, and is like a scraping sound... and the tire has no obvious damage...
I'd bet you damaged that corner wheel bearing...
...At first they developed a low buzz / hum, which I would kind of expect given the soft chunky tread pattern. But now they are just loud almost like a scraping sound and its pitch varies with speed. I can't see anything wrong with the tire. Is there something I should do to further test the tire, and how much concern should I have? I have never heard a tire anywhere near this loud. Its on an 05 Civic which has basically no sound insulation but it still seems unreasonably loud.
The fact that you hit a curb hard, and the noise showed up, and is like a scraping sound... and the tire has no obvious damage...
I'd bet you damaged that corner wheel bearing...
Originally Posted By: dlayman
Assuming no irregular tread wear, what causes some tires to get noisier with age?........
I'm going to reject your premise. I think tires getting noisier due to age IS caused by irregular wear and irregular wear alone. The difference between a vehicle that is out of alignment and one that is "In Spec" is a matter of degree. It just takes longer for the irregular wear to form with a vehicle that is only slightly off target.
And even though you may not be able to perceive irregular wear, that doesn't mean it isn't there. The point where the irregular wear develops enough noise and/or vibration (the difference between the 2 is frequency) to be perceived is sooner than the point where you can pick it up by rubbing your hand over the surface of the tread, and even further down the road, being able to see it.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
here is my understanding:
1. aggressive block pattern (should be always noisy)
2. abnormal wear from bad alignment or lack of rotations (gradually gets worse)
3. tread separation (sudden change)
4. "slipped"/broken/defective belts (still fuzzy about this one)
1. Agree, but I should warn folks that even completely smooth tires generate noise, because the road surface has macrotexture.
2. Sort of agree, but lack of rotation is just allowing any slight misalignment more time to generate irregular wear, so I see this as a single cause - not two!
3. Completely disagree. I think separations in tires generates a vibration not noise (But I will concede that noise and vibration are different frequencies and perhaps a separation might also generate a noise, but that is not my experience.)
4. I need to break this into 3 parts:
a) I don't think there are such things as slipped belts. I think people cite that as a cause for either a separation (not true) or irregular wear (also not true). Belts don't slip. They are 100% encased in rubber and the rubber doesn't allow the belt to move. (OK, there is a thing called compression set that is sort of rubber flow, but that's a different thing altogether.)
b) I know that sometimes people will find the wires broken in the belts - and I think that is a form of separation, and the result is sometimes this. But not every separation contains a broken belt and the cause of a separation is never the belt breaking.
c) Defective belt. This is more difficult in that I think most separations are faulty designs (the materials used in the belt package and way the belts are configured) and not what we normally this of as a "defect (something there that is not supposed to be there or something not there that is supposed to be there.)
But having said all that, I don't think separations generate noise as much as they generate vibrations (again with the proviso that noise and vibration are just different frequencies)
And lastly, I think irregular tire wear noise and bad bearing noises are easily confused. I think that if a noise shows up suddenly, it's more likely a bearing, and not a tire.
So I think the OP should be looking at the bearings.
Oh and one last thought: Dismounting a tire does not help in diagnosing a separation. Bulges are more likely to show up when the tire is inflated. Rubbing your hand over the tread surface (with gloves, of course!) is a good way to detect a small bulge.
Assuming no irregular tread wear, what causes some tires to get noisier with age?........
I'm going to reject your premise. I think tires getting noisier due to age IS caused by irregular wear and irregular wear alone. The difference between a vehicle that is out of alignment and one that is "In Spec" is a matter of degree. It just takes longer for the irregular wear to form with a vehicle that is only slightly off target.
And even though you may not be able to perceive irregular wear, that doesn't mean it isn't there. The point where the irregular wear develops enough noise and/or vibration (the difference between the 2 is frequency) to be perceived is sooner than the point where you can pick it up by rubbing your hand over the surface of the tread, and even further down the road, being able to see it.
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
here is my understanding:
1. aggressive block pattern (should be always noisy)
2. abnormal wear from bad alignment or lack of rotations (gradually gets worse)
3. tread separation (sudden change)
4. "slipped"/broken/defective belts (still fuzzy about this one)
1. Agree, but I should warn folks that even completely smooth tires generate noise, because the road surface has macrotexture.
2. Sort of agree, but lack of rotation is just allowing any slight misalignment more time to generate irregular wear, so I see this as a single cause - not two!
3. Completely disagree. I think separations in tires generates a vibration not noise (But I will concede that noise and vibration are different frequencies and perhaps a separation might also generate a noise, but that is not my experience.)
4. I need to break this into 3 parts:
a) I don't think there are such things as slipped belts. I think people cite that as a cause for either a separation (not true) or irregular wear (also not true). Belts don't slip. They are 100% encased in rubber and the rubber doesn't allow the belt to move. (OK, there is a thing called compression set that is sort of rubber flow, but that's a different thing altogether.)
b) I know that sometimes people will find the wires broken in the belts - and I think that is a form of separation, and the result is sometimes this. But not every separation contains a broken belt and the cause of a separation is never the belt breaking.
c) Defective belt. This is more difficult in that I think most separations are faulty designs (the materials used in the belt package and way the belts are configured) and not what we normally this of as a "defect (something there that is not supposed to be there or something not there that is supposed to be there.)
But having said all that, I don't think separations generate noise as much as they generate vibrations (again with the proviso that noise and vibration are just different frequencies)
And lastly, I think irregular tire wear noise and bad bearing noises are easily confused. I think that if a noise shows up suddenly, it's more likely a bearing, and not a tire.
So I think the OP should be looking at the bearings.
Oh and one last thought: Dismounting a tire does not help in diagnosing a separation. Bulges are more likely to show up when the tire is inflated. Rubbing your hand over the tread surface (with gloves, of course!) is a good way to detect a small bulge.
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Car will be in the shop on Saturday, I'll let you know how it turns out. Driving my other vehicle in the meantime. It doesn't have snow tires, so of course we're getting a snowstorm.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
And lastly, I think irregular tire wear noise and bad bearing noises are easily confused.
amen that.
one thing i noticed with bad tire noise, it's worse on smooth asphalt, weird.
And lastly, I think irregular tire wear noise and bad bearing noises are easily confused.
amen that.
one thing i noticed with bad tire noise, it's worse on smooth asphalt, weird.
I would like to but I just don't have a good place that I can do this, and working 12 hour days makes it tough too.
If it turns out to be the bearing, do folks think I should replace the tire too as a precaution due to the curb incident?
If it turns out to be the bearing, do folks think I should replace the tire too as a precaution due to the curb incident?
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