CATERHAM

[Stelth]

Mr. CATERHAM, I have a question. In a recent thread, I forget which one, you told a poster that 10w30 is an obsolete grade and he should use 5w- or 0w30 instead.

Here is my reasoning for using 10w30, and I'd like your comments on whether or not it makes any sense: in the PDF for Valvoline NextGen GB, it says that the NOACK of 10w30 is 11.3, and for 5w30 it's 14.4. That's an approximately 22% improvement in NOACK. Also, I ASSume that the 10w30 uses less VII than than the 5w30, which could lead to better viscosity retention, both kinematic and HTHS.

Also, I haven't started an engine in really low temps in over thirty years, and I don't see that changing real soon. Some winters here, we get a little frost in the mornings, so I'm sure that a 5w30 would pump a little faster, but most of the year it's going to be at least 50-60 deg at the coldest part of the day.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

Folks also say 10w40 is old school....But it is still being made and sold. PS>>>>Like your Subject (gets to the point

 

[Quattro Pete]

Why not PM CATERHAM if you have a question directed to him specifically?

 

[Spector]

In one vehicle I have a 50-50 mix of 10W40 and 10W30. Of course, my youngest vehicle is 11 years old, oldest is 19. The 19 year old goes back the the SJ oil.

 

[dparm]

Renewable Lube has actually told me their 15w40 is really a 5w40 in terms of cold temperature performance. They market it as 15w40 because diesel truck owners like to see that on the bottle!

They also told me the 5w40 is basically a 0w40 too.

Redline makes similar claims about their 30wt racing oils. The basestocks are so good that they are effectively multigrade.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Renewable Lube has actually told me their 15w40 is really a 5w40 in terms of cold temperature performance. They market it as 15w40 because diesel truck owners like to see that on the bottle!
They also told me the 5w40 is basically a 0w40 too.
Redline makes similar claims about their 30wt racing oils. The basestocks are so good that they are effectively multigrade.

That pretty much sums up the reason.
Regarding Red Line neither their 5w30 nor their 10w30 contain VIIs and they have the same HTHSV so in my book the renders the Red Line 10w30 redundant.
So technically with the better synthetics the 10w30 grade is virtually obsolete even with the use of less expensive GP III based oils. And the disadvantage of the 10w30 grade is not only on start-up at sub-freezing temp's but at all temperatures due to it's inherently lower VI.

But an SAE grade is also as about marketing if not all about marketing, and every grade has a certain cachet. And that's one main reason companies still produce the 10w30 grade not to mention it is cheap to make although they inevitably charge the same price for it.

With conventional oil the 10w30 grade still has some merit but not much since the better 5w30s are so shear stable today.

 

[JHZR2]

If that's the case, it still needs to "thicken" up to meet the correct range of viscosity at the temperature associated with 15w- oils. Generally 5 or 0w- oils have a lot of flexibility (limited by physics of course) in terms of what that slope might look like...

 

[CATERHAM]

The viscosity requirements for all multi-grade oils, be they 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W or 25W-XX are maximum values for the grade. There is no "thickening up" required. As far as cold performance is concerned as oil can't be too light.
So by definition a formulator can call an oil that meets the cold flow requirements of a 5W-XX, a 10W-XX or a 15W-XX if he so chooses as dparm pointed out.

 

[Bamboooo]

Who's CATERHAM?

 

[mechtech2]

10-30 is indeed irrelevant and obsolete, to me.
The 5-30 is not only thinner at zero F, but most of the way up to 212F.
A true benefit.

 

[Y_K]

Originally Posted By: Bamboooo
Who's CATERHAM?

A top down contrarian practitioner of the Bottom Up Era

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So by definition a formulator can call an oil that meets the cold flow requirements of a 5W-XX, a 10W-XX or a 15W-XX if he so chooses as dparm pointed out.


Can I pretend my Mobil Delvac 1300 15w40 is really a 5w-40 to make me feel better?

As it is, it's going to take me years to use up the stuff in my truck through just summers!

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The viscosity requirements for all multi-grade oils, be they 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W or 25W-XX are maximum values for the grade....So by definition a formulator can call an oil that meets the cold flow requirements of a 5W-XX, a 10W-XX or a 15W-XX if he so chooses as dparm pointed out.

Actually, The API requires that an oil be labeled only with the highest "W" grade that it meets. Hence an oil that meets the specifications for a 0W cannot be labeled as 5W or 10W, even though it technically meets their maximum specs.

Tom NJ

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The viscosity requirements for all multi-grade oils, be they 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W, 20W or 25W-XX are maximum values for the grade....So by definition a formulator can call an oil that meets the cold flow requirements of a 5W-XX, a 10W-XX or a 15W-XX if he so chooses as dparm pointed out.

Actually, The API requires that an oil be labeled only with the highest "W" grade that it meets. Hence an oil that meets the specifications for a 0W cannot be labeled as 5W or 10W, even though it technically meets their maximum specs.

Tom NJ


Do oils that aren't officially API spec'd bound by this too?

 

[Tom NJ]

Those are the rules for use of the SAE viscosity grades. If an oil is not API certified they will generally not be tested to show a violation, so enforcement would have no teeth. But they are still breaking the rules and deceiving the consumer.

The purpose of the rule is to make sure the product is properly described to the consumer If you label a 0w30 oil as a 10w30 oil, the consumer is fooled and not getting what they intended to purchase.

Tom NJ

 

[CATERHAM]

Thanks Tom, but as dparm pointed out I suspect it happens all the time.
For example I've read that PP and Pennzoil Ultra 5w30 do meet the 0W standard but wouldn't have great spec's as all 0W oils even 0W-40 oils are well below the maximum.

Besides the marketing of 0W-XX oils can be a problem.
Case in point; when Mobil first came out with their 0W-20 back in 2004 or so they couldn't sell it. Had to slap on a sticker saying it was perfectly good in 5W-20 applications. That still didn't work and they discontinued the product and came out with a Mobil 1 5w20 replacement.
Then some marketing genius at EOM resurrected the old 0W-20 grade, relabelled it as AFE 0W-20 with a green cap and now it sells fairly well. The fact that 0W-20 oils are now being spec'd by the Japanese OEM's probabily has also helped in the general acceptance of the 0W-20 grade.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
If you label a 0w30 oil as a 10w30 oil, the consumer is fooled and not getting what they intended to purchase.
Tom NJ

A 0w30 that's arketed as a 10w30 is a bit of a stretch but as I mentioned with my 5w30 example I don't see how a consumer is being fooled.
A 0W-XX is a technically superior product to a 5w30 or 10w30 for that matter. The fact that it flow better at extreme cold temp's has no disadvantages that I can see.

 

[Stelth]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
If you label a 0w30 oil as a 10w30 oil, the consumer is fooled and not getting what they intended to purchase.
Tom NJ

A 0w30 that's arketed as a 10w30 is a bit of a stretch but as I mentioned with my 5w30 example I don't see how a consumer is being fooled.
A 0W-XX is a technically superior product to a 5w30 or 10w30 for that matter. The fact that it flow better at extreme cold temp's has no disadvantages that I can see.


CATE (can I call you CATE?

), I absolutely agree that there's no disadvantage to better cold flow. However, my main questions are about the volatility difference, and the amount of VII. I think you've already addressed the VII issue in this thread, but do you think the NOACK being better by 22% makes any difference?

I realize that I'm probably splitting hairs here, but, hey, this is BITOG. Also, please don't take any of this as criticism, I'm talking to you specifically since you've posted so much info about viscosity in general, and HTHSV in particular, that I really want to understand what you think.

So far, you've pretty much convinced me to try Valvoline conventional or NexGen 5w30 next time around, but I'd like to know your thoughts on the NOACK difference.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: Bamboooo
Who's CATERHAM


A fellow BITOGer who believes that "thin is in"...

I would bet that most of the 5w30 PAO full synthetics from the past (before Group 3 syns) would meet the 0w30 specs...

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Stelth
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

CATE (can I call you CATE? However my main questions are about the volitility difference, and the amount of VII. I think you've already addressed the VII issue in this thread, but do you think the NOACK being better by 22% makes any difference?
I realize that I'm probably splitting hairs here, but, hey, this is BITOG. Also, please don't take any of this as criticism, I'm talking to you specifically since you've posted so much info about viscosity in general, and HTHSV in particular, that I really want to understand what you think.
So far, you've pretty much convinced me to try Valvoline conventional or NexGen 5w30 next time around, but I'd like to know your thoughts on the NOACK difference.

Call me CATERHAM or by my real name Peter; I'm not too fond of CATE.
As mentioned, I consider the 10w30 grade obsolete with regard to synthetic oils but less so with dino's although most 5w30 conventionals today are quite shear resistant. Since you're talking about two mineral oils my point doesn't really apply as much.

Part of the advantage of going with a syn oil in the first place is having the benefit of a lighter oil on start-up at all temperatures not just extreme cold. So you want and naturally expect a higher VI and you can't get that with a 10w30 grade; sort of self defeating.
Regarding NOACK, I don't really consider 14% a problem particularly if the application is not seeing high oil temp's. Keep in mind the spec' is taken at 250C. GP III oils will tend to have higher NOACK percentages than GP IV & V so if the 5w30 oil you're considering has a higher NOACK than you like it's not hard to find another oil brand with a lower value possibly even in a 0w30 grade.

Yes 5w30's may contain more VIIs than 10w30s but 5w30s are so generally shear stable that the trade-off of going with a theoretically more stable 10w30 is often not realized and all you wind up getting is a lower performing oil in terms of it's viscosity characteristics; i.e., a much lower VI.

I tust this helps.

Peter