Castrol 5w-30 Euro A3/B4 vs 5w-30 US

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167
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UT
Where did all that condensation come from?
Excessive crank case venting. Since its turbocharged and the manifold is often pressurized, the PCV system has two vents. One goes to the manifold for when the manifold is in vacuum, the other vents to the air intake just before the turbo compressor. When you are in boost, all of the blow by and vapors from the crank go through the turbo and then into the intercooler. The intercooler was nice and cold and condensed all of it out of the air like the most efficient catch can you've ever seen.

By the 2013 model year, Ford started installing a different PCV valve, and put shrouds on the intercooler as well as some baffles inside the intercooler to combat it. Then when the 2015's came out the intercooler was full redesigned.
 
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988
Location
Saint Nazianz, WI
I've read a lot about LSPI......to my understanding it's almost always seen in 4 cylinder TDI engines and not V6 or V8 TDI engines. Is there a specific reason for this ? I've read about V6 EcoBoost engines grenading themselves, but 95% of the time this is due to having a "HOT" tune loaded and not LSPI related. However the web is full of 4 cylinder engines that have come apart due to LSPI.

LSPI is almost exclusively confined to being an issue and concern in turbo gasoline direct injection (TGDI) engines under 2 litres in size, which happen to have become popular over the past decade.

FWIW there are an abundance of people who worry about LSPI that don't even have an engine that is likely to be susceptible to experiencing it. It has officially reached boogeyman status.
 
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80
I suppose I should really wave the flag for Castrol. However I think that a simple GF-6 oil is probably the right way to go here for a couple of reasons.

First off, any A3/B4 oil, by design, is formulated for BOTH petrol & diesel engines vehicles. As diesels are such a rarity in the US, you will in effect will be paying for something you don't need. Typically the diesel requirements will push up levels of ashless dispersant/dispersant VII in the oil which sounds a good thing but isn't. Given the way sales of diesels have tanked in recent years, I do wonder if us Europeans (yes I still consider myself to be one!) would do well to emulate the US example & split the two duties.

As regards the 'I need 3.5 HTHS to reduce wear' thing. Yes, I know it's 'a thing' but honestly, I stopped believing it years ago. The evidence just isn't there to support it in PCMO.
 

VAB

Thread starter
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43
I suppose I should really wave the flag for Castrol. However I think that a simple GF-6 oil is probably the right way to go here for a couple of reasons.

First off, any A3/B4 oil, by design, is formulated for BOTH petrol & diesel engines vehicles. As diesels are such a rarity in the US, you will in effect will be paying for something you don't need. Typically the diesel requirements will push up levels of ashless dispersant/dispersant VII in the oil which sounds a good thing but isn't. Given the way sales of diesels have tanked in recent years, I do wonder if us Europeans (yes I still consider myself to be one!) would do well to emulate the US example & split the two duties.

As regards the 'I need 3.5 HTHS to reduce wear' thing. Yes, I know it's 'a thing' but honestly, I stopped believing it years ago. The evidence just isn't there to support it in PCMO.
It's been my understanding that basically any oil formulated for the European market can easily pass any North American test related to wear, deposits, oil consumption, etc. but cannot pass the fuel economy portion because of the robustness of their oils (formulated for max wear protection, longer drain intervals and low deposits). However the opposite can be said about oils formulated for the North American market, they'd fail most Euro spec tests for wear, deposits, oil consumption, etc. because they're geared toward max fuel economy over everything else while providing "adequate" protection...... 🤷‍♂️
 
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12,390
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Colorado Springs
I suppose I should really wave the flag for Castrol. However I think that a simple GF-6 oil is probably the right way to go here for a couple of reasons.

First off, any A3/B4 oil, by design, is formulated for BOTH petrol & diesel engines vehicles. As diesels are such a rarity in the US, you will in effect will be paying for something you don't need. Typically the diesel requirements will push up levels of ashless dispersant/dispersant VII in the oil which sounds a good thing but isn't. Given the way sales of diesels have tanked in recent years, I do wonder if us Europeans (yes I still consider myself to be one!) would do well to emulate the US example & split the two duties.

As regards the 'I need 3.5 HTHS to reduce wear' thing. Yes, I know it's 'a thing' but honestly, I stopped believing it years ago. The evidence just isn't there to support it in PCMO.
Paying theoretically? Bcs. price of Castrol Edge is lower than M1 5W30 EP in Wal Mart. PP Euro L 5W30 goes for $21 and change for 5qt.
 
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80
It's been my understanding that basically any oil formulated for the European market can easily pass any North American test related to wear, deposits, oil consumption, etc. but cannot pass the fuel economy portion because of the robustness of their oils (formulated for max wear protection, longer drain intervals and low deposits). However the opposite can be said about oils formulated for the North American market, they'd fail most Euro spec tests for wear, deposits, oil consumption, etc. because they're geared toward max fuel economy over everything else while providing "adequate" protection...... 🤷‍♂️

There was a time when US & Euro oils were very different beasts but the gap has narrowed quite a bit of late.

If you go back 20 years & compared say a US 5W30 to a Euro 5W30 several things would be very apparent...

The most obvious would be the Euro 5W30 would be a full synthetic whilst US 5W30 could, and very likely would, have been a full Group II oil. As a result, the US oil would have had a much higher Noack.

The US oil would have been formulated for fuel economy. The HTHS would have been lower (2.9 min vs 3.5 min) but the actual HTHS gap would have been more like 3.15 to 3.45.

The VII in the US oil would have been highly shearable 55 SSI OCP vs 22 SSI OCP (but more likely expensive 5 SSI HSD VII) in the Euro oil.

Although both oils carried the same 5W winter rating, the CCS-30 of the US oil would be way lower than that of the Euro oil. US formulators used this as an indirect means to get the oil's KV40 down to coax it through the Sequence VI Fuel Economy test. This further exacerbated the Noack difference with 15% being quite common.

Other differences would include the use of very seal aggressive ashless dispersants in the US oil, marginally less ZDDP & no demonstrable diesel performance (although it would be there if you looked for it).

In short, Euro 5W30s were specialist products for car enthusiasts & people with more money than sense whereas US 5W30s were cheap as chips, workhorse oils for the masses.

In the intervening two decades, several things have happened. US oils have gotten a lot better. Full synthetics & part-synthetics are the norm now. I doubt if you could get a full Group II 5W30 through GF-6 & you could NEVER get it through dexos. I don't know but suspect part of the US has moved away from cheap & nasty 55 SSI VIIs & more towards 35 SSI ones. The 'Noack gap' has narrowed & dexos can take a lot of the credit for that. Finally, US oils now need to pass seal elastomer tests so bye-bye aggressive dispersants.

At the same time, Euro 5W30s have moved a bit towards US oils. ZDDP levels are about the same now. Euro C3 5W30s have largely taken over as workhorse oils from 10W40/15W40. I don't know this for a fact but I suspect 35 SSI OCP is now used in several Euro 5W30s to keep costs down & we're probably pulling the same tricks with KV40 to get our oils through FE tests.

I don't have my finger on the pulse as much as I used to but speaking personally, I'd say US oils are okay these days.
 
Messages
988
Location
Saint Nazianz, WI
I suppose I should really wave the flag for Castrol. However I think that a simple GF-6 oil is probably the right way to go here for a couple of reasons.

First off, any A3/B4 oil, by design, is formulated for BOTH petrol & diesel engines vehicles. As diesels are such a rarity in the US, you will in effect will be paying for something you don't need. Typically the diesel requirements will push up levels of ashless dispersant/dispersant VII in the oil which sounds a good thing but isn't. Given the way sales of diesels have tanked in recent years, I do wonder if us Europeans (yes I still consider myself to be one!) would do well to emulate the US example & split the two duties.

As regards the 'I need 3.5 HTHS to reduce wear' thing. Yes, I know it's 'a thing' but honestly, I stopped believing it years ago. The evidence just isn't there to support it in PCMO.

Just curious what you think of Shell Rotella T6 Multi Vehicle 5w30? It is rated as an HDEO and suitable for usage in both gasoline and diesel engines. It the best 5w30 I have ever used.

 
Messages
80
Just curious what you think of Shell Rotella T6 Multi Vehicle 5w30? It is rated as an HDEO and suitable for usage in both gasoline and diesel engines. It the best 5w30 I have ever used.


This puts me in mind of the old joke...

The optimist says the glass is half full.
The pessimist says the glass is half empty
The chemical engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be & design changes are required

Using an HDDO like Rotella T6 in a PCMO application will indeed work. However it will be 'twice as big as it needs to be'. It will contain up to double the amount of ashless dispersant, primarily put there to disperse diesel soot; soot that will of course not exist in a gasoline engine.

Generally high dispersant treats are a thing to be avoided as they ratchet up Noack. I'm guessing this oil has a very good GTL/PAO base oil/HSD VII system to accommodate all that ashless & keep still the oil's Noack below 13%. I suspect the oil is SN & not GF-5 because (amongst other things) any drop in the CCS-30 (to get it through the FE test) would rapidly push the oil over the top on Noack.
 
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2,291
Location
WA
This puts me in mind of the old joke...

The optimist says the glass is half full.
The pessimist says the glass is half empty
The chemical engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be & design changes are required

It's always fun to redesign plus added job security ... lol
 
Messages
988
Location
Saint Nazianz, WI
Using an HDDO like Rotella T6 in a PCMO application will indeed work. However it will be 'twice as big as it needs to be'. It will contain up to double the amount of ashless dispersant, primarily put there to disperse diesel soot; soot that will of course not exist in a gasoline engine.

Interesting that you mention soot, I elected to use this oil in my Hyundai's gasoline direct injection engine because I saw evidence of excessive carbon soot builup which I think it did an excellent job of cleaning out to the point of clogging the oil filter.


 
Messages
80
Interesting that you mention soot, I elected to use this oil in my Hyundai's gasoline direct injection engine because I saw evidence of excessive carbon soot builup which I think it did an excellent job of cleaning out to the point of clogging the oil filter.



Ah! Looked at the photographs & that definitely looks icky. I can see why you put Rotella in if your used oil's looking like that.

A couple of things come to mind...

First off, don't worry overly about oil going black. In my (former) world, this kind of thing is quite normal. Used diesel oil can be as black as pitch & still function quite happily.

Second, given that this is GDI, I might be asking if I've a faulty fuel injector, where the spray pattern's all messed up. Have you asked your Hyundai dealer to pull the injectors & get them checked out?

Third, is the oil accumulating soot from poorly burning gasoline or is black grot there because you're burning oil? Black engine oil was a common feature of the Audi TFSI 2.0 litre problems from around 2007 & that early GDI engine burnt oil like crazy. I don't do spanners & screw drivers but if I could safely disassemble the line from the PCV valve to the air intake, I might have squint inside the intake for any signs of black, condensed oil. I have a pet theory that fuel dilution in GDIs can strip the light front-end of your base oil when the fuel in the oil re-evaporates. I'm assuming it get pretty cold in Wisconsin & that will very likely exacerbate things.
 
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5,538
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down in the park
In the last few months of my career as a hyundai tech, I had several cars that needed new GDI injectors, FWIW... On some I already discovered issues at the first service.

The oils turned into a mess, not black but definitely dark and varnish deposits everywhere, including up the disptick.
 
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80
In the last few months of my career as a hyundai tech, I had several cars that needed new GDI injectors, FWIW... On some I already discovered issues at the first service.

The oils turned into a mess, not black but definitely dark and varnish deposits everywhere, including up the disptick.

Interesting. Did you see lumps of coke on the tips of the injections or was it like the deposit was 'inside' of the holes themselves. If you didn't look too hard and simply swapped out knackered ones for new ones, no biggie...
 
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5,538
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down in the park
there were no lumps, usually the faulty injectors were cleaner than the good ones... sometimes though they were all equally sooted up. The issue is more that they leak some fuel when they shouldn't.
 
Messages
988
Location
Saint Nazianz, WI
Ah! Looked at the photographs & that definitely looks icky. I can see why you put Rotella in if your used oil's looking like that.

A couple of things come to mind...

First off, don't worry overly about oil going black. In my (former) world, this kind of thing is quite normal. Used diesel oil can be as black as pitch & still function quite happily.

Second, given that this is GDI, I might be asking if I've a faulty fuel injector, where the spray pattern's all messed up. Have you asked your Hyundai dealer to pull the injectors & get them checked out?

Third, is the oil accumulating soot from poorly burning gasoline or is black grot there because you're burning oil? Black engine oil was a common feature of the Audi TFSI 2.0 litre problems from around 2007 & that early GDI engine burnt oil like crazy. I don't do spanners & screw drivers but if I could safely disassemble the line from the PCV valve to the air intake, I might have squint inside the intake for any signs of black, condensed oil. I have a pet theory that fuel dilution in GDIs can strip the light front-end of your base oil when the fuel in the oil re-evaporates. I'm assuming it get pretty cold in Wisconsin & that will very likely exacerbate things.
there were no lumps, usually the faulty injectors were cleaner than the good ones... sometimes though they were all equally sooted up. The issue is more that they leak some fuel when they shouldn't.

Very helpful information, thank you both!

The Hyundai in my possession was actually donated to me by someone who just didn't want to put up with it anymore and it apparently has had issues from the beginning of ownership. One look under the oil filler cap reveals a buildup of black nastiness inside the engine that apparently has begun to be loosened up with my maintenance efforts over the past 25,000 miles or so. The car has no meaningful market value and I am just interested in keeping it going to use with a charitable organization I work with.

The one lingering issue that keeps rearing its head is a CEL for the knock sensor which promptly goes away upon changing the oil and filter or running a bottle of fuel injector cleaner (ie Royal Purple, Redline SL1, etc) or both.
 
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80
Very helpful information, thank you both!

The Hyundai in my possession was actually donated to me by someone who just didn't want to put up with it anymore and it apparently has had issues from the beginning of ownership. One look under the oil filler cap reveals a buildup of black nastiness inside the engine that apparently has begun to be loosened up with my maintenance efforts over the past 25,000 miles or so. The car has no meaningful market value and I am just interested in keeping it going to use with a charitable organization I work with.

The one lingering issue that keeps rearing its head is a CEL for the knock sensor which promptly goes away upon changing the oil and filter or running a bottle of fuel injector cleaner (ie Royal Purple, Redline SL1, etc) or both.

Again very interesting...

If the issue is injectors leaking fuel (which must be finding its way into the sump oil) & you start seeing knock issues which go away when you change out the oil, I'd put serious money on the fact that you're burning oil that's been stripped out of the sump by re-evaporating leaked gasoline.

Back in the day, I used to blend gasoline at my old oil refinery. I never thought to measure the RON & MON of base oil but I can tell you it will be extremely poor & even tiny amounts will be very disruptive! Likewise any carbonaceous deposits it leaves behind (the gritty bits?) will act as mini glow-plugs post combustion, further increasing the tendency to knock.

How on earth did Hyundai get this engine so wrong? I used to do a lot of work with the South Koreans in the late 80s & visited the massive Hyundai plant in Ulsan. They were so impressive back then!
 
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93
Location
Massachusetts
Again very interesting...

If the issue is injectors leaking fuel (which must be finding its way into the sump oil) & you start seeing knock issues which go away when you change out the oil, I'd put serious money on the fact that you're burning oil that's been stripped out of the sump by re-evaporating leaked gasoline.

Back in the day, I used to blend gasoline at my old oil refinery. I never thought to measure the RON & MON of base oil but I can tell you it will be extremely poor & even tiny amounts will be very disruptive! Likewise any carbonaceous deposits it leaves behind (the gritty bits?) will act as mini glow-plugs post combustion, further increasing the tendency to knock.

How on earth did Hyundai get this engine so wrong? I used to do a lot of work with the South Koreans in the late 80s & visited the massive Hyundai plant in Ulsan. They were so impressive back then!
I have the 2016 1.6l GDI engine and it's been pretty bulletproof.
 
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