If programs like this were to become permanent and widespread across North America it would virtually wipe out the sub $5000 used car from the marketplace. And obviously no more used engines for older vehicles as well if they insist on dealers having to destroy the engine to qualify. An incentive for people who can afford it to buy a more fuel efficient and less polluting vehicle is a great idea, but what are the poorer folks going to drive if cheap old clunkers become scarce? Or is that the whole idea?
Cash for Clunkers...
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Think before you run out and trade you're ride in.You have to be a rocket scientist to work on these AlGoremobiles.
Originally Posted By: tenderloin
Chrysler is matching the up to $4500 for a short time if anyone is interested in one of their products
Don't we the taxpayer own some of Chrysler too? My head hurts...
Chrysler is matching the up to $4500 for a short time if anyone is interested in one of their products
Don't we the taxpayer own some of Chrysler too? My head hurts...
Originally Posted By: tenderloin
"Substantial opportunity exists for fraudulent diversion of the trade-in vehicle, largely because its still-functioning engine makes it attractive to return the vehicle to the road rather than relegate it to the scrap yard," the NHTSA said.
Doesn't substantial opportunity also exist for the dealers to "forget" to ruin the engines this way? I don't see the point.
"Substantial opportunity exists for fraudulent diversion of the trade-in vehicle, largely because its still-functioning engine makes it attractive to return the vehicle to the road rather than relegate it to the scrap yard," the NHTSA said.
Doesn't substantial opportunity also exist for the dealers to "forget" to ruin the engines this way? I don't see the point.
Originally Posted By: Vilan
Originally Posted By: tenderloin
"Substantial opportunity exists for fraudulent diversion of the trade-in vehicle, largely because its still-functioning engine makes it attractive to return the vehicle to the road rather than relegate it to the scrap yard," the NHTSA said.
Doesn't substantial opportunity also exist for the dealers to "forget" to ruin the engines this way? I don't see the point.
Or even ruining the wrong engine?
Originally Posted By: tenderloin
"Substantial opportunity exists for fraudulent diversion of the trade-in vehicle, largely because its still-functioning engine makes it attractive to return the vehicle to the road rather than relegate it to the scrap yard," the NHTSA said.
Doesn't substantial opportunity also exist for the dealers to "forget" to ruin the engines this way? I don't see the point.
Or even ruining the wrong engine?
Originally Posted By: pidster
If programs like this were to become permanent and widespread across North America it would virtually wipe out the sub $5000 used car from the marketplace. And obviously no more used engines for older vehicles as well if they insist on dealers having to destroy the engine to qualify. An incentive for people who can afford it to buy a more fuel efficient and less polluting vehicle is a great idea, but what are the poorer folks going to drive if cheap old clunkers become scarce? Or is that the whole idea?
If programs like this were to become permanent and widespread across North America it would virtually wipe out the sub $5000 used car from the marketplace. And obviously no more used engines for older vehicles as well if they insist on dealers having to destroy the engine to qualify. An incentive for people who can afford it to buy a more fuel efficient and less polluting vehicle is a great idea, but what are the poorer folks going to drive if cheap old clunkers become scarce? Or is that the whole idea?
Originally Posted By: tenderloin
Dealers must replace the oil in the "clunker" with two quarts of sodium silicate solution and run the engine for up to seven minutes, permanently disabling it, according to rules released today by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in Washington.
That's the most wasteful thing I've ever read. I suppose maybe the ultimate beneficiary in this "cash for clunkers' program will be those who operate auto shredding businesses and deal in scrap metal.
Will the next step be a law that allows the government to seize our older cars and scrap them? They're naughty gas guzzlers, don't you know? Punish them! Scrap them! Heathens!
Dealers must replace the oil in the "clunker" with two quarts of sodium silicate solution and run the engine for up to seven minutes, permanently disabling it, according to rules released today by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in Washington.
That's the most wasteful thing I've ever read. I suppose maybe the ultimate beneficiary in this "cash for clunkers' program will be those who operate auto shredding businesses and deal in scrap metal.
Will the next step be a law that allows the government to seize our older cars and scrap them? They're naughty gas guzzlers, don't you know? Punish them! Scrap them! Heathens!
Originally Posted By: pidster
...but what are the poorer folks going to drive if cheap old clunkers become scarce? Or is that the whole idea?
Could be. The government mandated all these expensive add-ons to cars starting in the 60s.
We seem to be devolving. Went from cars being expensive toys for the wealthier people, to every-man's car with the model T, to maybe back to the expensive toys.
In the 50s, the dealers about had a cow when the gov't allowed cars to be financed for up to two years (up from one year). The dealers didn't like writing loans for that long.
Now you can get a seven year car "mortgage." Where's the incentive to keep prices down?
...but what are the poorer folks going to drive if cheap old clunkers become scarce? Or is that the whole idea?
Could be. The government mandated all these expensive add-ons to cars starting in the 60s.
We seem to be devolving. Went from cars being expensive toys for the wealthier people, to every-man's car with the model T, to maybe back to the expensive toys.
In the 50s, the dealers about had a cow when the gov't allowed cars to be financed for up to two years (up from one year). The dealers didn't like writing loans for that long.
Now you can get a seven year car "mortgage." Where's the incentive to keep prices down?
"Will the next step be a law that allows the government to seize our older cars and scrap them? They're naughty gas guzzlers, don't you know? Punish them! Scrap them! Heathens"!
I have read a few bills that were similar. The government would not take away your gas guzzler but when it came time to sell or trade in, you had to basically sell it to the government so it would be scrapped like the vehicles in the clunker program. No tranfer of registry to any other party allowed.
Just another step towards......
I have read a few bills that were similar. The government would not take away your gas guzzler but when it came time to sell or trade in, you had to basically sell it to the government so it would be scrapped like the vehicles in the clunker program. No tranfer of registry to any other party allowed.
Just another step towards......
Kestas
Staff member
And just how would the government determine the fair market value of my older car? Where would be the incentive for the dealer to offer me good money for my well-maintained trade-in?
Originally Posted By: Vilan
Doesn't substantial opportunity also exist for the dealers to "forget" to ruin the engines this way? I don't see the point.
its my understanding, the dealer doesn't get the check from uncle sam until they prove the car has been destroyed.
Doesn't substantial opportunity also exist for the dealers to "forget" to ruin the engines this way? I don't see the point.
its my understanding, the dealer doesn't get the check from uncle sam until they prove the car has been destroyed.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Vilan
Doesn't substantial opportunity also exist for the dealers to "forget" to ruin the engines this way? I don't see the point.
its my understanding, the dealer doesn't get the check from uncle sam until they prove the car has been destroyed.
How long will that take? I mean, if you sell it to some salvage dealer, he could sit there for months before he decides to crush it. Not all salvage dealers have an on-site crusher (especially the small salvage dealers) and they have to take turns using it.
Originally Posted By: Vilan
Doesn't substantial opportunity also exist for the dealers to "forget" to ruin the engines this way? I don't see the point.
its my understanding, the dealer doesn't get the check from uncle sam until they prove the car has been destroyed.
How long will that take? I mean, if you sell it to some salvage dealer, he could sit there for months before he decides to crush it. Not all salvage dealers have an on-site crusher (especially the small salvage dealers) and they have to take turns using it.
I agree with all the sentiments about the waste on all sides with this.
Nevertheless, I have a 1988 Chevy 2wd pickup that is worth maybe $1K. I'm starting to think that if our government is going to hand out free money, I might be tempted to get in line.
As for Chrysler doubling the offer to $9K, that's nice, but IMHO they don't have a single offering that qualifies that I would want! (Talk about being in bad shape!) I'd rather stick with $4500 of a new VW GTI than go for $9000 off anything that would qualify on the Chrysler lot. (Charger, Challenger, etc., don't get good enough mileage to qualify.)
Nevertheless, I have a 1988 Chevy 2wd pickup that is worth maybe $1K. I'm starting to think that if our government is going to hand out free money, I might be tempted to get in line.
As for Chrysler doubling the offer to $9K, that's nice, but IMHO they don't have a single offering that qualifies that I would want! (Talk about being in bad shape!) I'd rather stick with $4500 of a new VW GTI than go for $9000 off anything that would qualify on the Chrysler lot. (Charger, Challenger, etc., don't get good enough mileage to qualify.)
Originally Posted By: pidster
If programs like this were to become permanent and widespread across North America it would virtually wipe out the sub $5000 used car from the marketplace. And obviously no more used engines for older vehicles as well if they insist on dealers having to destroy the engine to qualify. An incentive for people who can afford it to buy a more fuel efficient and less polluting vehicle is a great idea, but what are the poorer folks going to drive if cheap old clunkers become scarce? Or is that the whole idea?
Well, they could still buy and drive stuff that gets more than 18 MPG which is selling for as little as ever. I like the idea that if someone that broke needs a car they won't be endangering the roads I use in a lead sled like an explorer, running those walmart 235/75/15 tires with treadwear/ traction B B, only made in that one size for the "keep me on the road as cheaply as possible" crowd.
I just bought a running 97 cavalier for $150, yup, $150. Rated 37 MPG highway.
As for being permanent, I foresee a different suitor next time, like someone brokering carbon credits.
They'll need a cure to the inevitable slump that will follow this deal running out.
If programs like this were to become permanent and widespread across North America it would virtually wipe out the sub $5000 used car from the marketplace. And obviously no more used engines for older vehicles as well if they insist on dealers having to destroy the engine to qualify. An incentive for people who can afford it to buy a more fuel efficient and less polluting vehicle is a great idea, but what are the poorer folks going to drive if cheap old clunkers become scarce? Or is that the whole idea?
Well, they could still buy and drive stuff that gets more than 18 MPG which is selling for as little as ever. I like the idea that if someone that broke needs a car they won't be endangering the roads I use in a lead sled like an explorer, running those walmart 235/75/15 tires with treadwear/ traction B B, only made in that one size for the "keep me on the road as cheaply as possible" crowd.
I just bought a running 97 cavalier for $150, yup, $150. Rated 37 MPG highway.
As for being permanent, I foresee a different suitor next time, like someone brokering carbon credits.
Originally Posted By: crw
Nevertheless, I have a 1988 Chevy 2wd pickup that is worth maybe $1K. I'm starting to think that if our government is going to hand out free money, I might be tempted to get in line.
But how many more years of service could that truck provide? I still see 30+ year old Ford, GM, and Dodge pickups used as work trucks around here.
I can see why it is a tempting offer for many, I just hate the idea of vehicles that may have years of life left in them being crushed.
Nevertheless, I have a 1988 Chevy 2wd pickup that is worth maybe $1K. I'm starting to think that if our government is going to hand out free money, I might be tempted to get in line.
But how many more years of service could that truck provide? I still see 30+ year old Ford, GM, and Dodge pickups used as work trucks around here.
I can see why it is a tempting offer for many, I just hate the idea of vehicles that may have years of life left in them being crushed.
Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
I can see why it is a tempting offer for many, I just hate the idea of vehicles that may have years of life left in them being crushed.
+1. The pollution created by building new cars more than offsets that produced by the old ones. Not to mention selling more foreign cars isn't doing **** to help our economy.
I can see why it is a tempting offer for many, I just hate the idea of vehicles that may have years of life left in them being crushed.
+1. The pollution created by building new cars more than offsets that produced by the old ones. Not to mention selling more foreign cars isn't doing **** to help our economy.
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Originally Posted By: 01rangerxl
Originally Posted By: crw
Nevertheless, I have a 1988 Chevy 2wd pickup that is worth maybe $1K. I'm starting to think that if our government is going to hand out free money, I might be tempted to get in line.
But how many more years of service could that truck provide? I still see 30+ year old Ford, GM, and Dodge pickups used as work trucks around here.
I can see why it is a tempting offer for many, I just hate the idea of vehicles that may have years of life left in them being crushed.
You're exactly right. This truck has 206K miles, with no end in sight. Oil wise, well, it doesn't use any! But it's still worth maybe $1K, maybe less... I only use it for grunt work... but I could probably get by with the Suburban and my utility trailer. It's a tough decision... and by no means a foregone conclusion.
I just noticed that a new Camaro V6 would qualify. I have about $2500 GM card miles, and this would be a $3500 discount, for a total of $6K off on a new Camaro. Wow.
Originally Posted By: crw
Nevertheless, I have a 1988 Chevy 2wd pickup that is worth maybe $1K. I'm starting to think that if our government is going to hand out free money, I might be tempted to get in line.
But how many more years of service could that truck provide? I still see 30+ year old Ford, GM, and Dodge pickups used as work trucks around here.
I can see why it is a tempting offer for many, I just hate the idea of vehicles that may have years of life left in them being crushed.
You're exactly right. This truck has 206K miles, with no end in sight. Oil wise, well, it doesn't use any! But it's still worth maybe $1K, maybe less... I only use it for grunt work... but I could probably get by with the Suburban and my utility trailer. It's a tough decision... and by no means a foregone conclusion.
I just noticed that a new Camaro V6 would qualify. I have about $2500 GM card miles, and this would be a $3500 discount, for a total of $6K off on a new Camaro. Wow.
It's not really free money. I think if you calculated the added taxes (from the sale of the new vehicle) plus the added benefit of getting the auto industry back working plus the benefit of not having to clean up the environment from all those clunkers (*) and the benefit of reducing gasoline consumption, I would bet good money that the program ends up being profitable for the taxpayers.
* Even if you just consider the damage done to the roads of a bunch of leaking pieces of junk, and ignore the air pollution aspect.
* Even if you just consider the damage done to the roads of a bunch of leaking pieces of junk, and ignore the air pollution aspect.
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