Cash for Clunkers...

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Just curious who "the devil" is of which you repeatedly speak? Perhaps you could be very specific. I'm unsure of who "the devil" is?

60 senators voted to extend C4C. Are they "the devil"? Just wondering?

Yes they are.

Not going any further due to R/S/P.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
You'd be surprised how fast these high end cars depreciate, no matter how good they look. My 95 Mercedes E320 cabriolet, which originally cost $75K, is now worth $10K... not far from the $4500 bogey. And this is a pampered car.

They depreciate horribly because these cars are incredibly complicated, loaded with electronics that are incredibly unreliable, and are incredibly expensive to diagnose and repair. The owners cut their losses by selling them cheap. Buyers don't want to inherit the problems (present and future).


Our Z4 was sold for $50k in 2004 and is now worth about $12k. The parts are horrendously expensive, there are way too many sensors and there is very little expertise to diagnose problems as they arise. Just to figure out the wiring for the brake sensor and the coolant sensor cost $500 (sensors were new, but there was a problem with the wiring)!

That's what I suspect is happening with that Volvo video. The engine might be good but a buddy of mine had a Volvo for a year that constantly pi$$ed him off so he got rid of it.

So it is possible that the Volvo was dumped and the owner got a Chrysler for a total of $9,000 trade in value. Without knowing the details of the transaction, making noises is nonsensical.

 

[sciphi]

The emissions are one area those brand-new cars kick tail. They're cleaner at WOT than my current car is when sitting in the parking lot. We might be putting more CO2 into the air but we're reducing NOx and very fine particulates. It's been said half-jokingly that one can help clean up the air by driving a SULEV or PZEV-emissions car more.

If you want to pollute more, shut your car off at every stoplight and never give it a chance to warm up. Take your thermostat out, yank a spark plug wire, disconnect your oxygen sensor, gut the cat, and put your tires up to 50 psi to coast further on a cold engine. Then your engine will be using tons of fuel and spewing lots of junk into the air.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan

So it is possible that the Volvo was dumped and the owner got a Chrysler for a total of $9,000 trade in value. Without knowing the details of the transaction, making noises is nonsensical.


Making "noises" on how the trade in value was made and on what reasons the "program" was created is valid.

Esp when hypocrites are the ones making up the stupid system.

If the guy is having issues with his overpriced Volvo so be it. But for me to have to pay for his trade in credit is WRONG.

Bill

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
The emissions are one area those brand-new cars kick tail. They're cleaner at WOT than my current car is when sitting in the parking lot. We might be putting more CO2 into the air but we're reducing NOx and very fine particulates. It's been said half-jokingly that one can help clean up the air by driving a SULEV or PZEV-emissions car more.

If you want to pollute more, shut your car off at every stoplight and never give it a chance to warm up. Take your thermostat out, yank a spark plug wire, disconnect your oxygen sensor, gut the cat, and put your tires up to 50 psi to coast further on a cold engine. Then your engine will be using tons of fuel and spewing lots of junk into the air.


What about the emissions for building the new car? Transporting it from the plant to dealer? How about the emissions to destroy the "clunker"? Transporting the "clunker" to the recyclers?

How about the chemicals needed to dispose of the engine? And the emissions to produce them?

Yeah the new cars are so clean that I heard one of our idiots say that a SUV pollutes less in a week than someone mowing their lawn for 20 minutes a week with a gas mower... (wonder if he owns a electric lawn mower company since that was what he was pushing.. A law making fuel powered lawn mowers illegal)

Bill

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: sayjac

60 senators voted to extend C4C. Are they "the devil"? Just wondering?

Yes. The entire appropriation of the stimulus bill, through defecit spending, borrowing more money, and printing more money, was stupid. This money for C4C comes from the stimulus.

It's nothing but an [censored] backwards attempt at creating artificial demand on credit (both for the country, and for a lot of the people buying new cars) at the sacrifice of future demand. Lets face it, we've seen PLENTY of examples of perfectly fine, PAID FOR cars that are being scrapped. That is the economic equivalent of paying people to dig holes and refill them. It's dead weight. Then, in the future, when people that bought cars under C4C REALLY need something, such as a major appliance that goes kaput, they won't have the money, or will be forced to buy yet again on credit.

It's about votes for those 60 senators and stimulus that will last just long enough to get re-elected. It's also about a really whacked out notion of trying to get rid of gas guzzlers to save the climate.

So yes, those senators are the devil.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: sayjac

60 senators voted to extend C4C. Are they "the devil"? Just wondering?

Yes. The entire appropriation of the stimulus bill, through defecit spending, borrowing more money, and printing more money, was stupid. This money for C4C comes from the stimulus.

It's nothing but an [censored] backwards attempt at creating artificial demand on credit (both for the country, and for a lot of the people buying new cars) at the sacrifice of future demand. Lets face it, we've seen PLENTY of examples of perfectly fine, PAID FOR cars that are being scrapped. That is the economic equivalent of paying people to dig holes and refill them. It's dead weight. Then, in the future, when people that bought cars under C4C REALLY need something, such as a major appliance that goes kaput, they won't have the money, or will be forced to buy yet again on credit.

It's about votes for those 60 senators and stimulus that will last just long enough to get re-elected. It's also about a really whacked out notion of trying to get rid of gas guzzlers to save the climate.

So yes, those senators are the devil.


Wow! Could not have said it any better Drew!

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Funny, none of the regulars here had a clunker to trade.


I don't know if I'm a regular, but I think the odds of my (ex) Blazer escaping the crusher are 50:50 at best.

It was a top of the line vehicle in '96, AWD, leather, power everything, the whole option smack, but even in good condition with only 101K on the clock, it's just not worth $3500 today. One of the salesmen wanted it, so hopefully that will save it.

As a touch of irony, I traded it on another SUV (CUV?), the hi po GXP version of the Torrent. The fuel efficiency of the Blazer was so bad, it is (was) clunker eligible on the GXP.

The GXP does get significantly better gas mileage and is lots safer. I figure in about 26 years, the gas savings alone will pay for the new vehicle .....

I can understand the angst over taxpayer money subsidising over extended doofuses who bought gas hogs to get yugobamas. Speaking as someone who has paid ridiculous amounts of taxes over the years, if my tax money has to be peed away, I greatly prefer to see it help joe sixpack get a newer, safer, car for his family, as opposed to helping Barnard investment banker / commodity speculator maintain his lifestyle in the Hamptons.

I just don't get the angst over the destruction of the vehicles. They're just old cars, everything has to go sometime. The point ( I think )is not to save energy in manufacturing, it's to get little cars on the road so they can jack up the gas price, and generate a little local sales tax revenue.

 

[ksJoe]

An alternate top 10 list:

1 Ford Escape
2 Ford Focus
3 Jeep Patriot
4 Dodge Caliber
5 Ford F-150
6 Honda Civic
7 Chevrolet Silverado
8 Chevrolet Cobalt
9 Toyota Corolla
10 Ford Fusion

Quote:
The discrepancy is a result of the methods used. Edmunds.com uses traditional sales measurements, tallying sales by make and model. The government uses a more arcane measurement method that subdivides models according to engine and transmission types, counting them as separate models.


Ford Escape is the # 1 C4C buy.

 

[addyguy]

Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
just did 2 engine disables. one on a 91ish ranger that lasted about 4 minutes, another on a 86 ranger with a 2.9l that lasted about 6 minutes. got them on video, including the radiator exploding on the ranger.


I can't believe a member of this site would participate in this, and post about it on here...yeah, I know you work for Ford, but ever heard of being a 'conscienable objector' (sp)?

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: Kestas
You'd be surprised how fast these high end cars depreciate, no matter how good they look. My 95 Mercedes E320 cabriolet, which originally cost $75K, is now worth $10K... not far from the $4500 bogey. And this is a pampered car.


All too true.

My Xj12 was in the same price range, a bit more, plus all the punishment taxes that get levied on cars like that, and with 72 or 73K on the odo, it's basically worth pocket change on today's used car market.

Just not a lot of demand for two and a half ton V12 powered cars that slurp a gallon of premium fuel every eleven or twelve miles.

Our Xj8 with 23K on the odo is no better, maybe worth in the low 20's now, or even less.

Premium euro luxury cars are probably the absolute worst thing you can ever spend money on. It's barely better than lighting cigars with C notes.

 

[Bamaro]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
just did 2 engine disables. one on a 91ish ranger that lasted about 4 minutes, another on a 86 ranger with a 2.9l that lasted about 6 minutes. got them on video, including the radiator exploding on the ranger.


SAD.... Even IF the vehicles were junk, taking them to a junk yard is the proper thing to do.

Destroying them on purpose is just WRONG.....

(the stinking devil)


You got that right. They should have instituted a well structured Feebate system instead of this. Could have had better results without destroying still serviceable vehicles.

 

[LTVibe]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Destroying them on purpose is just WRONG.....

(the stinking devil)


There is a Chevy dealer near Chicago that desperately wants to save one of their 'clunker' trades from the shredder:

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090807/...oned+and+killed

Quote:
This one is a 1988 model with just 37,000 miles and not so much as a dent or a torn seat or any sign of wear in the plush tan carpeting.

"The older employees, they lost sleep at night thinking this car is going to get cubed," Gibson said.

So, while they push through documents on the other vehicles, this one sits among the used cars, an American flag on the antenna, the word "Clean" on the windshield.

No cash-for-clunkers paperwork has been submitted on it. The hope is that somebody will pay something close to the $4,500 the dealership gave the owner toward a new car so it can be sold simply as a trade-in.

As of Thursday, they had no offers. But employees did spot people outside taking pictures of the car.

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: Win


Premium euro luxury cars are probably the absolute worst thing you can ever spend money on. It's barely better than lighting cigars with C notes.


At least a masochistic, talented do it yourselfer can buy some luxury used vehicles for a bargain price.

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
I can't believe a member of this site would participate in this, and post about it on here...yeah, I know you work for Ford, but ever heard of being a 'conscienable objector' (sp)?


i just watched and took video. although the upper hose exploding with a tech standing next to it made us all start laughing. btw pretty much everyone here thinks the whole plan is lame. a few of the techs were saying how nice some of the trucks would be as hunting or shooting range trucks.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Win


Premium euro luxury cars are probably the absolute worst thing you can ever spend money on. It's barely better than lighting cigars with C notes.


At least a masochistic, talented do it yourselfer can buy some luxury used vehicles for a bargain price.


Oh yeah, you have to DIY. Paying someone else to fix one after they go out of warranty, except as a last resort, is just pouring crazy gas on the original stupid fire.

They are nice cars, though, and it is a pleasure to wrench on a well designed, high quality, car.

 

[Win]

Originally Posted By: LTVibe


There is a Chevy dealer near Chicago that desperately wants to save one of their 'clunker' trades from the shredder:



$4500 bucks isn't going to break the car dealer - he/she could save it if they wanted.

We still have my wife's '79 Sedan DeVille with 59K original miles on it in storage.

I wouldn't hesitate to push the crush button on that dinosaur.

 

[Kestas]

If nobody wants to step up and buy the 88 Caprice, then it's not worth $4500.

 

[oilyriser]

These vehicles could be used as guinea pigs for Bruce's latest 0w-1 blend...

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
$4500 bucks isn't going to break the car dealer - he/she could save it if they wanted.
Exactly! The dealer's not not too desperate to save it or he would have bought it outright $4500 for resale. If he were desperate, he'd be willing to take a loss on it.

The only thing he's desparate about is to make a buck. Not too desperate.