Let me just say I'm not against electronics in cars. I LOVE fuel injection. The car will start in -20 degree cold and in 110 degree heat. Also the distributorless ignition is amazing and very very reliable. It's just that all the "systems" that are around it are very complex, like the auxiliary emission systems and traction control, ABS, stability control. Also, why do we need to have such complex engines with 4 valves per cylinder and DOHC for street vehicles? It adds cost and weight to the vehicle and who is gonna notice. Besides the OHV make better low-end torque usually, which is more usable in street driving.
Car Have Become Too Complex!
- Thread starter parimento1
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: parimento1
It's just that all the "systems" that are around it are very complex, like the auxiliary emission systems and traction control, ABS, stability control. Also, why do we need to have such complex engines with 4 valves per cylinder and DOHC for street vehicles? It adds cost and weight to the vehicle and who is gonna notice. Besides the OHV make better low-end torque usually, which is more usable in street driving.
Those systems are complex, but you are taking them for granted. For example, an SRS airbag system is HIGHLY complex.
I don't really see your reasoning. Are you complaining about the complexity of cars? But you say you like advancements such as Fuel Injection.
You cannot have advancement without complexity.
It's just that all the "systems" that are around it are very complex, like the auxiliary emission systems and traction control, ABS, stability control. Also, why do we need to have such complex engines with 4 valves per cylinder and DOHC for street vehicles? It adds cost and weight to the vehicle and who is gonna notice. Besides the OHV make better low-end torque usually, which is more usable in street driving.
Those systems are complex, but you are taking them for granted. For example, an SRS airbag system is HIGHLY complex.
I don't really see your reasoning. Are you complaining about the complexity of cars? But you say you like advancements such as Fuel Injection.
You cannot have advancement without complexity.
What I mean is that electronic control of the basics is a great idea like fuel injection and ignition. Much more reliable than mechanical can ever hope to be. I also like passive safety devices, like airbags, those are nice. With the exception of airbags, the things I DO NOT LIKE are systems which are needlessly complex. Do we really need 6 speeds with all electronic controls, varibale lockups torque converter, VVT with 10000000 differnt ways to vary the cams, engines with 4 cams and 4 valves per cylinder, traction control and stability control (for fwd cars anyway), blind spot sensors, self-parking systems, and lets not forget the very complex birds nest of vacuum tubes and solenoids that is the emissions system. In a nutshell, I like technology that makes cars MORE reliable, not less.
Last edited:
What I mean is that electronic control of the basics is a great idea like fuel injection and ignition. Much more reliable than mechanical can ever hope to be. However, when you DO actually get a problem with the ignition or fuel injection on a new car...it is very difficult, even for experienced techs, and yes, dealers to get to the bottom of a given problem. Even with OBDII, once it throws the CEL, it could be myriad of things that are wrong, even with the specific code. It becomes a big hassle checking each connector, tracing back the spaghetti bowl of wiring from all the different harnesses to check for open circuits. It could also be that the computer could be faulty itself, amongst other things. Once you get past the basics of ignition and fuel and u get the transmission controller and traction control, ABS, stability control, transmission with 6+ speeds, DOHC cam engine with VVT systems that can break that can vary timing 1000000000 different ways. My question is, do we really needs all this? I'm all for emissions controls but today's emissions are wayyyy overboard, I think half the engine bay is emissions stuff from EVAP to EGR, PCV, etc, with all the hoses and tubes and solenoids. I think they are really pushing the ICE to its limit these days. Why not just make cars run on something else instead of having to make all these needlessly complex things to adapt the ICE to the 21st century?
Originally Posted By: parimento1
What I mean is that electronic control of the basics is a great idea like fuel injection and ignition. Much more reliable than mechanical can ever hope to be. I also like passive safety devices, like airbags, those are nice.
Actually Airbags are active safety devices. A seltbelt is passive.
Originally Posted By: parimento1
With the exception of airbags, the things I DO NOT LIKE are systems which are needlessly complex. Do we really need 6 speeds with all electronic controls, varibale lockups torque converter, VVT with 10000000 differnt ways to vary the cams, engines with 4 cams and 4 valves per cylinder, traction control and stability control (for fwd cars anyway), blind spot sensors, self-parking systems, and lets not forget the very complex birds nest of vacuum tubes and solenoids that is the emissions system. In a nutshell, I like technology that makes cars MORE reliable, not less.
-A six speed transmission I'd pick any day. My parents old Caravan had a TERRIBLE 3 speed transmission.
A 6 speed manual gearbox is one of the greatest parts of driving a car in my opinion.
-Variable Valve Timing: I'm glad it exists. Better emissions, better powerband, and better fuel economy. Honda has never EVER had a single VTEC malfunction since they patented it. So I don't agree that it is needlessly complex.
-4 cams and 4 valves per cylinder: Not more unreliable compared to 3 cam systems.
-Traction control saves lives. So does ABS
-Blind spot sensors and autoparking are luxury items at this point in time. Nice, but not necessary. Luxury cars are expected to have more sosphisticated technology.
-Emissions system: Like I said before. It is simply inexcusable to not have these. I'd advise you to travel to a city such as Bangkok or Kathmandu, and tell me if you think emissions control systems are necessary.
Overall, I'd argue that the reliability of today's "complex" automobiles are better than ever. Just because there are MORE modes of failure doesn't mean they happen, given they are engineered correctly.
My point is, you are kind of picking and choosing. You might not value ABS or traction control, but there are others that do. Same goes with emissions, you may not think of them as important, but you haven't been to a place where air pollution is a problem.
What I mean is that electronic control of the basics is a great idea like fuel injection and ignition. Much more reliable than mechanical can ever hope to be. I also like passive safety devices, like airbags, those are nice.
Actually Airbags are active safety devices. A seltbelt is passive.
Originally Posted By: parimento1
With the exception of airbags, the things I DO NOT LIKE are systems which are needlessly complex. Do we really need 6 speeds with all electronic controls, varibale lockups torque converter, VVT with 10000000 differnt ways to vary the cams, engines with 4 cams and 4 valves per cylinder, traction control and stability control (for fwd cars anyway), blind spot sensors, self-parking systems, and lets not forget the very complex birds nest of vacuum tubes and solenoids that is the emissions system. In a nutshell, I like technology that makes cars MORE reliable, not less.
-A six speed transmission I'd pick any day. My parents old Caravan had a TERRIBLE 3 speed transmission.
A 6 speed manual gearbox is one of the greatest parts of driving a car in my opinion.
-Variable Valve Timing: I'm glad it exists. Better emissions, better powerband, and better fuel economy. Honda has never EVER had a single VTEC malfunction since they patented it. So I don't agree that it is needlessly complex.
-4 cams and 4 valves per cylinder: Not more unreliable compared to 3 cam systems.
-Traction control saves lives. So does ABS
-Blind spot sensors and autoparking are luxury items at this point in time. Nice, but not necessary. Luxury cars are expected to have more sosphisticated technology.
-Emissions system: Like I said before. It is simply inexcusable to not have these. I'd advise you to travel to a city such as Bangkok or Kathmandu, and tell me if you think emissions control systems are necessary.
Overall, I'd argue that the reliability of today's "complex" automobiles are better than ever. Just because there are MORE modes of failure doesn't mean they happen, given they are engineered correctly.
My point is, you are kind of picking and choosing. You might not value ABS or traction control, but there are others that do. Same goes with emissions, you may not think of them as important, but you haven't been to a place where air pollution is a problem.
I'd say that things like VVT and 4/5 speed automatics help make engines more reliable by making it easier for them to run in the sweet spot all the time.
The reliability growth in automobiles has caused the automotive aftermarket so much grief.
For example the switch over to all stainless steel exhaust systems has pretty much destroyed the muffler business.
The reliability growth in automobiles has caused the automotive aftermarket so much grief.
For example the switch over to all stainless steel exhaust systems has pretty much destroyed the muffler business.
My neighbor has a beautifully restored all original Model A. Very simple this car is, but what a contrast to our latest vehicles. This car is so uncomplicated that it's complicated. You need to double clutch, hand signal, adjust fuel mixture and ignition timing while driving and if doing night driving, adjust the charging system by moving a brush inside the generator. If you ever see an owners manual for one of these, take a peek at it.
an airbag is passive- it doesn't require any driver input to use it, like a seatbelt does. Yea I am not arguing that cars aren't more reliable, I was saying that they are more reliable for a certain amount of time, but when the problems do creep up, they can be a pain to fix. Cars back in the day probably broke down more, but when they did, they were easier to troubleshoot and fix.
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
-Variable Valve Timing: I'm glad it exists. Better emissions, better powerband, and better fuel economy. Honda has never EVER had a single VTEC malfunction since they patented it. So I don't agree that it is needlessly complex.
You sure about that? I know a guy who had to have his VTEC system worked on in his Accord, something about the engine refusing to rev above where it would have engaged and misfiring instead. Sure sounds like a failure to me.
-Variable Valve Timing: I'm glad it exists. Better emissions, better powerband, and better fuel economy. Honda has never EVER had a single VTEC malfunction since they patented it. So I don't agree that it is needlessly complex.
You sure about that? I know a guy who had to have his VTEC system worked on in his Accord, something about the engine refusing to rev above where it would have engaged and misfiring instead. Sure sounds like a failure to me.
I think people look at the "good old days" with too much nostalgia.
Even though cars were simpler and easier to repair, people still scrapped them at 10 years or sooner and got something new, today's cars can be sold to a happy second or third owner at 10 years of age, with pretty much only oil changes and brake pad jobs for maintenance, and still be reliable for 5+ years.
All these electrical problems that many are so afraid of will not surface until 15+ years, for economy cars, luxury cars and German ones are something else, and how many will keep a car for that long, certainly not your average driver, and the ones that do keep their cars for that long, usually will get a factory repair manual, a scan tool and will diagnose the problems themselves.
Like others said, today's cars can last 10-15 years with minimal maintenance, most "econo boxes" can go 0-60 in under 9 seconds, while meeting the toughest emission standards and delivering 35+mpg, if some don't see this as progress, they have to take off the pink colored glassess.
Even though cars were simpler and easier to repair, people still scrapped them at 10 years or sooner and got something new, today's cars can be sold to a happy second or third owner at 10 years of age, with pretty much only oil changes and brake pad jobs for maintenance, and still be reliable for 5+ years.
All these electrical problems that many are so afraid of will not surface until 15+ years, for economy cars, luxury cars and German ones are something else, and how many will keep a car for that long, certainly not your average driver, and the ones that do keep their cars for that long, usually will get a factory repair manual, a scan tool and will diagnose the problems themselves.
Like others said, today's cars can last 10-15 years with minimal maintenance, most "econo boxes" can go 0-60 in under 9 seconds, while meeting the toughest emission standards and delivering 35+mpg, if some don't see this as progress, they have to take off the pink colored glassess.
Originally Posted By: mstrjon32
You sure about that? I know a guy who had to have his VTEC system worked on in his Accord, something about the engine refusing to rev above where it would have engaged and misfiring instead. Sure sounds like a failure to me.
Could have been an ECU failure or something. Might not have been a failure in the VTEC system proper.
You sure about that? I know a guy who had to have his VTEC system worked on in his Accord, something about the engine refusing to rev above where it would have engaged and misfiring instead. Sure sounds like a failure to me.
Could have been an ECU failure or something. Might not have been a failure in the VTEC system proper.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
@ StevieC: I hate to be a stick in the mud, and I don't want to come across as having a bone to pick with you or your car, but until you find the new regulations it's hard to say whether your car meets them.
Also, how would your car compare to its 2009 counterpart? I'd think that would be informative as well.
You are missing the point.
I said if you look at the numbers they are low enough to fall into the 2009 category. It doesn't matter that the car isn't made anymore. They go based on Vehicle year, weight and engine size to determine the allowable limits. The numbers from the 89's test are so low they would also fall in the more stringent limits of a 2009 model year vehicle with the same weight and engine size.
I can't remember the exact numbers but I know the readings I have are low enough that it would pass for a 2009 emission standard vehicle as I have done enough emission testing to know what the numbers should look like.
I really wish I could find them but trying to navigate a government website is like trying to find an honest politician. This just doesn't happen.
If I come across the info I will send it to you... Until then take my word for it. I'm sure others from Canada can chime in seeing my numbers.
Or next time I'm at the emission testing machine I have access to I will see what a 2009 vehicle of the same weight and engine size has for allowable limits if it will tell me.
@ StevieC: I hate to be a stick in the mud, and I don't want to come across as having a bone to pick with you or your car, but until you find the new regulations it's hard to say whether your car meets them.
Also, how would your car compare to its 2009 counterpart? I'd think that would be informative as well.
You are missing the point.
I said if you look at the numbers they are low enough to fall into the 2009 category. It doesn't matter that the car isn't made anymore. They go based on Vehicle year, weight and engine size to determine the allowable limits. The numbers from the 89's test are so low they would also fall in the more stringent limits of a 2009 model year vehicle with the same weight and engine size.
I can't remember the exact numbers but I know the readings I have are low enough that it would pass for a 2009 emission standard vehicle as I have done enough emission testing to know what the numbers should look like.
I really wish I could find them but trying to navigate a government website is like trying to find an honest politician. This just doesn't happen.
If I come across the info I will send it to you... Until then take my word for it. I'm sure others from Canada can chime in seeing my numbers.
Or next time I'm at the emission testing machine I have access to I will see what a 2009 vehicle of the same weight and engine size has for allowable limits if it will tell me.
When computer operated engines came out, I figured that the days of the home mechanic were pretty much over except for maybe brakes and tire rotation. What I didn't anticipate was the emergence of reasonably priced aftermarket diagnostic equipment. I pretty much do all my own work now and other that the cost of the laptop, the software to access the car computer was $90. Made it back on the first repair.
complex doesn't mean harder to work on, or more prone to failure. modern coil on plug ignition systems are simpler, but old grouchy dudes don't understand it if it doesn't have a distributor they can turn while they are trying to start it.
I dealt w/ this recently with my nephew and a saturn SL1 they couldn't get started. the saturn S series is among the simplest cars to work on, but his grandfather ('experienced' mechanic) just started throwing parts at it, instead of methodically testing things. the mantra of old grouches is 'it's the d*mn computer! the saturn computer NEVER fails, the few sensors it DOES have are very reliable, and most problems could be solved by a $7 temp sensor.
I grew up w/ hot rods and carbs, manual chokes and all that. I don't miss it one bit. I love OBDII!
I dealt w/ this recently with my nephew and a saturn SL1 they couldn't get started. the saturn S series is among the simplest cars to work on, but his grandfather ('experienced' mechanic) just started throwing parts at it, instead of methodically testing things. the mantra of old grouches is 'it's the d*mn computer! the saturn computer NEVER fails, the few sensors it DOES have are very reliable, and most problems could be solved by a $7 temp sensor.
I grew up w/ hot rods and carbs, manual chokes and all that. I don't miss it one bit. I love OBDII!
I don't miss trying to figure out how to manipulate the carb to get the car started on a particular morning.
Do I pump it once, twice? How long do I need to let it idle before I can drive off without stalling?
I can't say I've had those issues with fuel injected cars. Just turn the key and it starts.
Sure, I remember getting rebuild kits for a carb for probably $10 to $20 and rebuilding a dodgy carb. But I don't miss having to do that.
Do I pump it once, twice? How long do I need to let it idle before I can drive off without stalling?
I can't say I've had those issues with fuel injected cars. Just turn the key and it starts.
Sure, I remember getting rebuild kits for a carb for probably $10 to $20 and rebuilding a dodgy carb. But I don't miss having to do that.
I remember having to adjust carbs seasonally (OCD) and changing points every ~5k miles. I was a pro at it back then and my friends were always amazed on how well my 12+ year old car ran.
Now there's none of that and better mileage due to better metering of fuel and spark. Yes, when something goes wrong it a pain to track down but with OBD2 and a scanner it makes it much, much simpler.
Now there's none of that and better mileage due to better metering of fuel and spark. Yes, when something goes wrong it a pain to track down but with OBD2 and a scanner it makes it much, much simpler.
Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: KLowD9x
Personally, I feel that the more complex they get, the better.
Probably because you don't pay for these repairs out of YOUR pocket.
That makes sense. I own two cars and don't pay for the repairs?
Who do you think pays for them? You? Certainly not.
Originally Posted By: KLowD9x
Personally, I feel that the more complex they get, the better.
Probably because you don't pay for these repairs out of YOUR pocket.
That makes sense. I own two cars and don't pay for the repairs?
Who do you think pays for them? You? Certainly not.
JohnD, what software do you use??
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked