Can't trust JD Power ratings... LOL

[SubieRubyRoo]

So anyways I was over on the torquenews.com/subaru blog and reading a bunch of industry reports. According to JD Power, Subaru ranks very poorly on their APEAL score, and also on initial quality score. However, Forbes rated the Forester as the #5 most likely vehicle to make it to 250k miles, and their story confirmed that 96% of all Subarus sold in the past 12 years are still on the road. The one survey that Subaru did rank #1 on for JD Power was owner loyalty, beating Toyota and Honda. Since I'm a Subaru owner and fan, I want to ask for other opinions: If Subarus rate so poorly on the "industry expert" tests and scoring, why have they been rated #1 for customer loyalty and resale value over the past 3-4 years?

I'm puzzled, because the "experts" rank so many other vehicles above Subaru, yet the people actually buying the cars keep buying them and won't part with the brand. Why do you think this is?

 

[JeffKeryk]

People love their Subies. That's generates loyalty.

 

[slo town]

Subie, please understand, I'm not throwing stones at you!

My wife and I bought a new 2001 Subarau Outback that was one of the worst cars we've ever owned. It had severe clutch chatter problems (it was a 5 speed manual) until Subaru finally developed a new flywheel right before we sold it. Plus is had the head gasket leaks, which Subaru officially "fixed" with a small bottle of radiator stop leak. Ours also had horrible wheel bearing noise, which was going to cost thousands to fix. Then the entire rear lighting system had to be replaced because of some kind of bizarre corrosion inside the housings. Also, the car was horrendous in the snow - snap oversteer, snap understeer. Only after buying did we learn the manual transmission drivetrains had a less effective AWD system. I despised that car so much I sold it to a used car dealer one afternoon, just to get it out of the garage!

My BIL had bad luck with his Outback as well. Chronic tire wear problems, and a bad rear diff right after warranty ended.

I'm glad your Subies have worked out for you. But as always, YMMV.

Scott

 

[benjamming]

Initial quality is quite different than reliability.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

APPEAL is a survey of the initial 90 day ownership experience. It has zero bearing on whether why Subaru's are most likely to still be on the road after 200k miles.


https://www.jdpower.com/business/re...ormance-execution-and-layout-apeal-study


The biggest question for Subaru owners, especially those who have over 50k miles on the ODO is whether they would own a Subaru for the long term if it did not come with AWD.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

SLO, I get that Subaru has had engineering problems. I too have shaken my fist at some of the boneheaded mistakes they've made. But I'm talking mainly since the generation changes around 2009-2011... after the CVT fiasco, Subaru seems to have finally gotten the majority of bugs worked out and is on a (bank)roll. It's one thing I think makes a lot of sense- develop one or two engines, one or two drivetrains, and use it in everything you make. Simplicity ends up breeding reliability and efficiency in manufacturing, which benefits both the customer and the company.

I don't take any Subaru horror stories as personal... every brand has some black eyes from engineering gaffes, to me it's important that "most" of the Subaru failures (oil consumption, wheel bearings, sway bar links, etc) don't completely disable the vehicle if there is a failure. About the only way to have a catastrophic failure is the timing belt snapping on EJs, water pump going out, head gasket leaking coolant, or the CVT failure. But again, my question is... with all of these headaches and no really inspiring models since the XTs and GTs went away in 2010 (leaving only the WRX family with turbos), people still love them. It's odd even for me as a Subaru owner. And yes, I converted my mom from a GM lifer to an '18 Forester which has been rock solid.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
The biggest question for Subaru owners, especially those who have over 50k miles on the ODO is whether they would own a Subaru for the long term if it did not come with AWD.


You do make a good point, and like I mentioned above there has been no real pizzazz in the Subaru lineup since the Outback & Legacy turbos went away with the 2009/2011 models. But oh that AWD... I know it's no rock-crawler, but stick a set of Blizzaks on your Subaru and there's not many other vehicles more capable of safely transporting your family in the winter. We all know when you've got something that makes you feel safe, you get emotionally attached to it.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
SLO, I get that Subaru has had engineering problems. I too have shaken my fist at some of the boneheaded mistakes they've made. But I'm talking mainly since the generation changes around 2009-2011... after the CVT fiasco, Subaru seems to have finally gotten the majority of bugs worked out and is on a (bank)roll. It's one thing I think makes a lot of sense- develop one or two engines, one or two drivetrains, and use it in everything you make. Simplicity ends up breeding reliability and efficiency in manufacturing, which benefits both the customer and the company.

I don't take any Subaru horror stories as personal... every brand has some black eyes from engineering gaffes, to me it's important that "most" of the Subaru failures (oil consumption, wheel bearings, sway bar links, etc) don't completely disable the vehicle if there is a failure. About the only way to have a catastrophic failure is the timing belt snapping on EJs, water pump going out, head gasket leaking coolant, or the CVT failure. But again, my question is... with all of these headaches and no really inspiring models since the XTs and GTs went away in 2010 (leaving only the WRX family with turbos), people still love them. It's odd even for me as a Subaru owner. And yes, I converted my mom from a GM lifer to an '18 Forester which has been rock solid.



Would you own a Subie if it didn't have AWD? From my limited contact with these owners it's all about the AWD and ride height.

Edit: For full disclosure, the I6 + RWD is the primary reason why I drive BMW. Handling/high speed composure is second

 

[BHopkins]

I have never had much confidence in JD Powers. I remember many years ago that JD Powers gave Volkswagen top ratings for initial quality and also for 3 year reliability. It was at that time that I learned JD Powers is paid by the auto manufactures. Specifically, it is paid by a manufacturer that wants their data.

It's understandable that if a car company is interested in data to help them measure how they are doing, and understand where improvements are needed, that they may want the data to be as accurate as possible. But if the intent is to use the data for marketing, then there is no question that they are going to design the data collection to skew results so it will portray their cars in a better light. I believe JD Powers are expert at that.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by BHopkins
I have never had much confidence in JD Powers. I remember many years ago that JD Powers gave Volkswagen top ratings for initial quality and also for 3 year reliability. It was at that time that I learned JD Powers is paid by the auto manufactures. Specifically, it is paid by a manufacturer that wants their data.

It's understandable that if a car company is interested in data to help them measure how they are doing, and understand where improvements are needed, that they may want the data to be as accurate as possible. But if the intent is to use the data for marketing, then there is no question that they are going to design the data collection to skew results so it will portray their cars in a better light. I believe JD Powers are expert at that.



To prove that you'd have to compare their rankings with CR.

3 yr abv avg reliably for VW isn't all that difficult to imagine. It's from year 6 onward that is what matters to most who frequent this board.

 

[gfh77665]

Some here really believe that JDP simply approaches all the automakers, then they rank them 1st to last according to how much bribe money comes in.

Yeah. Whatever.

 

[BHopkins]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
SLO, I get that Subaru has had engineering problems. I too have shaken my fist at some of the boneheaded mistakes they've made. But I'm talking mainly since the generation changes around 2009-2011... after the CVT fiasco, Subaru seems to have finally gotten the majority of bugs worked out and is on a (bank)roll. It's one thing I think makes a lot of sense- develop one or two engines, one or two drivetrains, and use it in everything you make. Simplicity ends up breeding reliability and efficiency in manufacturing, which benefits both the customer and the company.

I don't take any Subaru horror stories as personal... every brand has some black eyes from engineering gaffes, to me it's important that "most" of the Subaru failures (oil consumption, wheel bearings, sway bar links, etc) don't completely disable the vehicle if there is a failure. About the only way to have a catastrophic failure is the timing belt snapping on EJs, water pump going out, head gasket leaking coolant, or the CVT failure. But again, my question is... with all of these headaches and no really inspiring models since the XTs and GTs went away in 2010 (leaving only the WRX family with turbos), people still love them. It's odd even for me as a Subaru owner. And yes, I converted my mom from a GM lifer to an '18 Forester which has been rock solid.



Would you own a Subie if it didn't have AWD? From my limited contact with these owners it's all about the AWD and ride height.


There is a lot to that. For me at least.

When my wife and I moved back to Utah after living in the Southeast and Midwest for several years, she wanted the added security of AWD. Based upon all my research, and with an Audi being a little beyond our budget, the choice was a Subaru. Her Outback has been a very good car. Except for oil consumption our Outback has been extremely reliable. And I enjoy driving it. We have had some real fun off-road adventures with it. Things that I never would have ventured to do in most of the direct competitors to an Outback.

But if I were still living in Kentucky or South Carolina, I probably never would have bought a Subaru, except for perhaps a WRX or a BRZ. There are a lot of great options from Toyota, Mazda, and others. And they have some nicer features than Subaru. So yea, AWD is most definitely the deciding factor in buying a Subaru.

 

[BHopkins]

Originally Posted by gfh77665
Some here really believe that JDP simply approaches all the automakers, then they rank them 1st to last according to how much bribe money comes in.

Yeah. Whatever.


That's totally silly. But as I stated above, I do believe JD Powers is willing to tailor surveys and data collection to get the desired results for their client. Unfortunately, the client is not the American consumer.

 

[007]

JD Powers is about as legit as Consumers Reports. Both were good back in the day but its seems like JD Powers rates everything lately from cars to businesses and toilet paper. Most of the stuff rated by Consumers Reports can't be bought after it was rated and found in the magazine because it is no longer made or is now available under a new model number with different features. Also remember that the venues used to produce these ratings and reports are done with a small amount of people.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by BHopkins
Originally Posted by gfh77665
Some here really believe that JDP simply approaches all the automakers, then they rank them 1st to last according to how much bribe money comes in.

Yeah. Whatever.


That's totally silly. But as I stated above, I do believe JD Powers is willing to tailor surveys and data collection to get the desired results for their client. Unfortunately, the client is not the American consumer.


Keep in mind that if they gave the automakers what they wanted to hear then they would be doing a disservice to their client when the ratings don't match up with the reality. Does anyone do a 5 or 6 yr long term study in the US? Does the CR annual report ask their subscribers to rate their current vehicle regardless of year or do they extrapolate LT reliability based upon other factors?

 

[Dave Hess]

JD Ratings = ‘As seen on TV' advertising.

 

[LoneRanger]

You mean Joke D Power ratings? They're basically a joke. Not accurate nor trust worthy.

 

[Lolvoguy]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Edit: For full disclosure, the I6 + RWD is the primary reason why I drive BMW. Handling/high speed composure is second

+1

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
..... However, Forbes rated the Forester as the #5 most likely vehicle to make it to 250k miles, and their story confirmed that 96% of all Subarus sold in the past 12 years are still on the road.

I keep hearing this as a big advertising selling point for Subaru. But how does that, "96% / 12 year" deal play out when compared with all the other manufactures? How many Toyota's, Honda's and Ford's are still on the road after 12 years? And does it really mean anything when compared to actual production numbers? Toyota, Honda, and Ford out produce Subaru by a huge margin.

A new Subaru can get walloped on the way home from the dealer, same as any other make or model. And that's the end of it. And what does a, "Forbes Rating" have to do with longevity? Absolutely nothing. What gets ANY vehicle to 250,000 miles is good care and regular maintenance. Not what brand it happens to be.

Beat on, and neglect a Subaru, and it's not going to last long. Just as any other car wouldn't. Getting 250,000 miles out of any modern vehicle in a good climate, with good care, maintenance, and being kept in a garage, is just not that big of a deal anymore.

I'm not saying Subaru is either bad or great in the grand scheme of things. But all things considered, I doubt their cars will last any longer than most brands, given equal care and driving conditions. And remember, the average age of a modern vehicle today is 11.4 years. So Subaru raving about still being on the road after 12 years, only pans out to being slightly above average. And not only that, but how many of those 12 year old Subaru's are still on their original owners? Most people don't keep a car that long regardless of how well they run.

https://www.autotrader.com/car-shopping/buying-car-how-long-can-you-expect-car-last-240725

"Research by R.L. Polk says that the average age of a modern vehicle is 11.4 years, while the average length of time drivers keep a new vehicle is 71.4 months -- around 6 years. "

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
So anyways I was over on the torquenews.com/subaru blog and reading a bunch of industry reports. According to JD Power, Subaru ranks very poorly on their APEAL score, and also on initial quality score. However, Forbes rated the Forester as the #5 most likely vehicle to make it to 250k miles, and their story confirmed that 96% of all Subarus sold in the past 12 years are still on the road. The one survey that Subaru did rank #1 on for JD Power was owner loyalty, beating Toyota and Honda. Since I'm a Subaru owner and fan, I want to ask for other opinions: If Subarus rate so poorly on the "industry expert" tests and scoring, why have they been rated #1 for customer loyalty and resale value over the past 3-4 years?

I'm puzzled, because the "experts" rank so many other vehicles above Subaru, yet the people actually buying the cars keep buying them and won't part with the brand. Why do you think this is?



Had a top of the line 2012 Legacy Sedan. Paint was so poor-anything would make it chip off. Spoke to two dealers and asked them to paint roof and hood. The Subaru factory rep said no.

I traded it in with 45,000 miles on it and will never own another Subaru. When you are "fat and happy" with 5 plus years of consecutive sales records -you can afford to alienate a few customers apparently.