Canadian elected's weighing in.... Scary

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Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Why should I? If you want armed to teeth vigilante society, why don't you move to a place like that?


Respectfully, the United States already allows its citizens to bear arms to protect themselves from others and from the government. That right is established in the 2nd Amendment. If we choose to arm ourselves to the teeth, we can. We have that choice in these United States.

If one prefers a government that limits that activity to a greater degree, then one has the option of moving there.
 
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Why should I? If you want armed to teeth vigilante society, why don't you move to a place like that?


Respectfully, the United States already allows its citizens to bear arms to protect themselves from others and from the government. That right is established in the 2nd Amendment. If we choose to arm ourselves to the teeth, we can. We have that choice in these United States.

If one prefers a government that limits that activity to a greater degree, then one has the option of moving there.


The 2nd amendment speaks of "well regulated". A few people need to read that part.
 
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
The 2nd amendment speaks of "well regulated". A few people need to read that part.


I think most have read it. Few understand it. Respectfully, it seems that you misunderstand it as well.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm

"Well-regulated" doesn't mean heavily regulated by government. Ironically, and critically, the 2nd Amendment is designed to protect citizens from the government. The 2nd Amendment, designed to protect citizens from their government, cannot rely on the government to administer that right. That would be a fundamental paradox, despite how the media portrays it today.

From the website (emphasis mine): "Establishing government oversight of the people's arms was not only not the intent in using the phrase in the 2nd amendment, it was precisely to render the government powerless to do so that the founders wrote it."
 
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
@Indylan, are your police afraid of the civilians and shoot to kill, then ask questions, upon any hint of trouble? Do you have massacres periodically?

If not, then you guys must be doing something right.


Why don't you move there?


Why should I? If you want armed to teeth vigilante society, why don't you move to a place like that?


Because you seem to find our society dangerous based on the behavior of law abiding people . I live in the jungle as it is made by others. Would I like a more civilized law abiding society..you bet. Am I Pollyanna and willing to risk my personal safety to prove an agenda. Not likely.
 
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
@Indylan, are your police afraid of the civilians and shoot to kill, then ask questions, upon any hint of trouble? Do you have massacres periodically?

If not, then you guys must be doing something right.


Why don't you move there?


Why should I? If you want armed to teeth vigilante society, why don't you move to a place like that?


Because you seem to find our society dangerous based on the behavior of law abiding people . I live in the jungle as it is made by others. Would I like a more civilized law abiding society..you bet. Am I Pollyanna and willing to risk my personal safety to prove an agenda. Not likely.

I probably could find a few places to live in Canada where a handgun would be nice to have, but I'd make a lot of other sacrifices before living in those places, as I'd never want to live where needing a gun in self defense is more likely than being struck by lightning...
I would guess that atleast 95% of Canadians live in an area that they don't feel a handgun would be ever necessary. I'm sure more people live in an area where they could find trouble if they wanted it, but that's a different question.
Anyways, that's my point of view as an average Canadian.
 
Doog, if you apply "an armed society is a polite society" logic, the way we are armed would mean that we would be a paradise. But yet we are one of the most violent societies among the developed nations.

There is no empirical evidence that more guns means a safer society.

As a well armed citizen myself, I am for a well regulated framework for firearm ownership. Like education and training as a pre-requisite for firearm ownership (regardless whether you obtain it from an FFL or a private party). Annual certifications that you still own the firearm. Penalties for losing or having it stolen.

That's how you will keep the guns in the hands of lawful citizens and ascertain to a degree that they will not accidentally or intentionally cause harm.

The aim is not to ban guns but to make sure that people are not hurt.
 
I live in a rural area and I would still prefer to have the ability to carry concealed despite the very low crime rate in my area. "I would rather have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have one".
 
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
As a well armed citizen myself, I am for a well regulated framework for firearm ownership. Like education and training as a pre-requisite for firearm ownership (regardless whether you obtain it from an FFL or a private party). Annual certifications that you still own the firearm. Penalties for losing or having it stolen.


I appreciate all of those points. And I favor required education prior to gun ownership, too. That said, there are two extremes here:

(a) A complete free-for-all where there are zero background checks, and buying a weapon is as easy as buying a stick of gum.

(b) Total regulation by the government, including who is allowed to own a gun (by name), the size of gun allowed, the caliber of gun allowed, the round count of the magazine allowed, the number of guns allowed, etc.

It's my feeling that MOST people, gun owners and non-gun owners, probably feel that neither extreme is appropriate, and the "best" balance is somewhere in the middle. To be sure, where, exactly, that line is drawn is what generates the discussion and disagreement.

I'm personally of the opinion that if you give an inch, they take a mile. Give the federal government much of a foot in the door, and they may not do much with it today. And maybe not tomorrow. But over time, they begin to add more bureaucracy and more rules until the result looks nothing like how it started. This clearly doesn't pertain only to gun rights. It pertains to pretty much every facet of federal government. And I'll quit right there so I don't cross a certain line regarding the BITOG terms of service...

I think there are very reasonable and justifiable areas where it's appropriate to have national oversight, such as the current background check system, etc. I'm not personally in favor of a national database of gun ownership -- that would essentially be a list of legal gun owners, and wouldn't give the government any actionable data. I'm sure it'd have a number of nefarious uses, though. There are already jurisdictions that limit magazine size and limit the types of firearms its citizens can purchase (Massachusetts, California, etc). A co-worker of mine says that her dad (in Maryland) has been trying to get a concealed carry permit for years, but they're extremely difficult to acquire in Maryland because you have to have a "valid need" to apply for one. In essence, the decision on whether you carry a gun lies not with you, but with the government.

http://www.abc2news.com/homepage-showcase/conceal-and-carry-permits-difficult-to-obtain-in-maryland

Those types of unfortunate regulations are the product of government involvement. My fear is that federal regulations will begin to move in this direction if we're not careful.
 
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Why should I? If you want armed to teeth vigilante society, why don't you move to a place like that?


Respectfully, the United States already allows its citizens to bear arms to protect themselves from others and from the government. That right is established in the 2nd Amendment. If we choose to arm ourselves to the teeth, we can. We have that choice in these United States.

If one prefers a government that limits that activity to a greater degree, then one has the option of moving there.


The 2nd amendment speaks of "well regulated". A few people need to read that part.


Being that the states decide if you can own guns or not, the 2nd isn't an absolute.

Fugitives of justice
Felons and people convicted of some misdemeanors
People under indictment for certain crimes
Illegal aliens
Anyone that has been found mentally unstable
Unlawful users of any controlled substance
Anyone dishonorably discharged from the military
Anyone who has renounced their U.S. citizenship
Anyone subject to a restraining order for stalking, harassing, or threatening.

None of them can own firearms regardless of the 2nd Amendment.
 
Originally Posted By: Trajan


Being that the states decide if you can own guns or not, the 2nd isn't an absolute.

Fugitives of justice
Felons and people convicted of some misdemeanors
People under indictment for certain crimes
Illegal aliens
Anyone that has been found mentally unstable
Unlawful users of any controlled substance
Anyone dishonorably discharged from the military
Anyone who has renounced their U.S. citizenship
Anyone subject to a restraining order for stalking, harassing, or threatening.

None of them can own firearms regardless of the 2nd Amendment.


Which misdemeanors?
 
Originally Posted By: Doog
Which misdemeanors?


Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor offense of domestic violence cannot own a firearm. It states it right on any up to date 4473 Form. This has caused a lot of issues with several police officers. Some of them have been relegated to desk duty as a direct result of the conviction.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Doog
Which misdemeanors?


Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor offense of domestic violence cannot own a firearm. It states it right on any up to date 4473 Form. This has caused a lot of issues with several police officers. Some of them have been relegated to desk duty as a direct result of the conviction.


Oh Ok, I thought it was a felony conviction of DV. Yeah there is a cop charged with DV right now in Cleveland. Yeah don't want the wife beaters having guns. But I imagine there are a lot of divorces where angry spouses file fake accusations against the other and that becomes a real problem.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Doog
Which misdemeanors?


Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor offense of domestic violence cannot own a firearm. It states it right on any up to date 4473 Form. This has caused a lot of issues with several police officers. Some of them have been relegated to desk duty as a direct result of the conviction.


The Lautenberg Amendment created this situation. No exceptions. But it only covers egar firearms.

So, it applies not only to police, but military as well.

And as an example of incomprehensible thinking, I had sailors that could not carry an M-9 or M-4 because of Lautenberg, but those very same sailors were OK to train and shoot the M-249 machine gun, M-2 .50 cal machine gun and the MK-19 40mm automatic grenade launcher....
 
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Originally Posted By: Doog
Yeah don't want the wife beaters having guns. But I imagine there are a lot of divorces where angry spouses file fake accusations against the other and that becomes a real problem.


That is becoming a real issue. In many states if someone in the household calls the police in regards to a domestic violence incident, and the police show up, someone is going to jail. 9 out of 10 times it's the male. Women are quick to do this knowing if there is even the slightest chance the cops will believe her story, the guy is going to be charged with domestic violence. If that happens, he just lost his guns. Most cops will not charge someone with domestic violence if they don't think it will stick in court. Bottom line it's a really lousy way to lose your firearms rights.

This could happen even if the neighbors called during a loud argument. Husbands and wives fight all the time. In very few incidents is there enough cause or reason to result in the loss of someone's Second Amendment rights.
 
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