Can somebody explain biodegradable 2-cycle Oil?

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Panzerman - Are you sure you are not thinking about Castor-oil? Ester oil is the cleanest burning 2-stroke mix oil I have ever used.....
 
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2,368
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Texas
There is a LOT of misinformation in this thread. Having attended many OPE manufacturer's service schools, and becoming Echo certified in 2-cycle engine failure analysis, let me share a little of what I learned... 1st, the equipment manufacturer determines the mix ratio used in their 2-cycle engines. They engineered and tested their engines, so they know what the engines need. 2nd, the 2-cycle oil being used must be the correct oil for the equipment at the manufacturer's specified mix ratio. In other words, if the manufacturer's specified mix ratio is 50:1, the oil should specify that it is for use at 50:1 on the label, and the oil must be mixed at 50:1, even if it says it can be used at "up to" 100:1 on the label. If the oil says 40:1 on the label it should not be mixed and used at 50:1. If the oil says 100:1 on the label it should not be used at a 100:1 ratio in a 2-cycle engine whose manufacturer has specified 50:1 regardless of what the oil company "claims" on the label. 3rd, the 2-cycle oil being used must be TCW3 certified for water cooled 2-cycle engines, or JASO certified for air cooled 2-cycle engines. If the oil says it can be used in both, it shouldn't be used in either. It is your equipment so you can do what you want, but, in my experience if you follow the above rules you won't have any lubrication related engine failures (I never saw one during all the years that I was working on them). Lacking an accurate small engine tachometer (which is how the manufacturers want you to adjust the carburetors now days), after the engine is warm and the low speed mixture has been adjusted at idle, the correct way to adjust the carburetor's high speed mixture is to richen it (turn the high speed mixture screw OUT) just enough so the engine 4-cycles slightly at full throttle with no load. At full load (like on a blower), at full throttle richen it up until it 4-cycles, and then lean it out (turn the high speed mixture screw IN) just enough that it runs smooth (and not any further). It is hard to describe the 4-cycling sound on paper other than "raspy".
 
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Slovenia EU
2 things... Point 3) TCW-3 is ONLY for water cooled outboard engines....because those operate @much lower temperatures...since they have constant supply of "fresh" cool water from a pond/sea... For any other water cooled engine (e.g. my Gilera Runner 50SP scooter) API TC/TD (JASO FC/FD) oil should be used! Regarding your description of "4stroking"....it is easier if you just go the other way around....2stroke engine @WOT should not sound like an electric coffe mill/grinder....that high pitch sound @WOT is the sound of death for a 2stroker...
 
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78
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Illinois
With today's oil you can use 50;1 mix ratio in any two cycle power equipment made today and most older engines too. Racing engines of course are a different story.
 
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2,368
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Texas
Originally Posted by Mike72
With today's oil you can use 50;1 mix ratio in any two cycle power equipment made today
Yes.
Originally Posted by Mike72
and most older engines too.
No. There are quite a few older 2-cycle engines that will seize if you run them at 50:1 including engines manufactured by... Lawnboy (C, D, and F series engines), Tecumseh/Snow King, Ryan/IDC, Poulan/Weedeater (and Sears/Craftsman), McCulloch, Homelite, Jacobsen, JLO, Sachs, and several others. On these older engines it is even more of a problem now that E10 is the prominent gasoline. Most of these engines are now long-gone (except for many old low-hour chainsaws).
 
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2,368
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Texas
Originally Posted by Kamele0N
^^^ and a reason for higher oil mix/ratio is what? Bushing/plain rod bearings instead of needle bearings?
I have never seen a small 2-cycle engine that had a plain bearing/bushing on the crankshaft end of the connecting rod, they are typically needle bearings on small 2-cycle engines. The failure mode for most air cooled 2-cycle engines that were run with too little oil or the wrong kind of oil is piston scoring or seizing in the cylinder. Sometimes the cylinder itself will score on the cheap 2-cycle engines that have plain aluminum cylinder bores. Most of the older small 2-cycle engines that require more oil mixed with the gas have reed valves. Reed valve engines do not deliver as much lubrication to the cylinder wall as piston port engines do. A good rule-of-thumb is to not mix at a higher ratio than 32:1 on a reed valve equipped air cooled small engine.
 
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2,308
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Ottumwa, Iowa
I wonder if any of his equipment exploded from the new oil in the last 11 years? Biodegradable oil is required in some forestry application. Government wetlands and the like.
 
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78
Location
Illinois
C and D Lawn Boy engines need 32:1 because they have a bushing on the blade end of the crankshaft and in the case of most C engines a bushing on the small end of the rod also. Lawn Boy F models from 1978 on are full needle bearing reed valve engines and can use a 50:1 mix of today's oil. I've run the reed valve D models (with a needle bearing re-placing the crankshaft bushing) for hundreds of hours on 50:1 without a hint of a problem. Many old two cycle engines including early Lawn Boy engines had plain bearings on both ends of the connecting rod and were recommended to use 16:1.
 
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Originally Posted by Mike72
Lawn Boy F models from 1978 on are full needle bearing reed valve engines and can use a 50:1 mix of today's oil.
I was a Lawnboy servicing dealer when H-D began selling them and I can't tell you how many Lawnboys were brought to me for warranty with burned-up F-series engines due to running 50:1 mix in them (many/most of them were commercial users, most homeowners who burned them up were from running them with raw gas). I can't tell you how many unhappy (to put it mildly) H-D customers I had to deal with because of this. I strongly recommend against running an F-series Lawnboy at 50:1. A 32:1 mix is particularly important because of E10 (as it was when MTBE was the primary oxygenate used in gas). The highest mix ratio using a quality modern air cooled 2-cycle oil that I would go with is 40:1. One might be able to get away running an F-series at 50:1 on E0, but why take the risk? Only the M-series can be safely run at 50:1 because it is a piston port engine (M-series mowers that had the auto-oiler ran at 64:1). On all C and D series Lawnboys, 16:1 was spelled-out in the owners manual. BTW, I really liked the F-series Lawnboys. I could rebuild the engines in under an hour by replacing the piston/rings (Rotary 23-2954), honing the metal transfer from the cylinder (if needed), and resealing them. They ran as-good-as-new afterward. I rebuilt hundreds of them this way. H-D would bring a truckload of customer returned lawnboys to me in the fall. I rebuilt them during the winter slow period and resold them as used in the spring.
 
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4,262
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Port Orange, Florida
I run 32:1 in all my two stroke equipment. I never had a problem. Blowers, chainsaws, weedeaters, lawnboys etc. I have equipment can mixed at 32:1 and motorcycle can premix at 40:1. My wife bought me a new Echo weed eater for Christmas two years ago, it called for 50:1. I was going to keep a separate can at 50:1 but thought that's crazy. It gets 32:1 after two years- O problems. Stihl chainsaws, Husky chainsaws, Poulan, all get 32:1- 0 problems. I ve even dumped the premix in 4 cycle engines. Rototiller and edger and had 0 problems because I always have pre mix because I have so many two strokes.
 
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78
Location
Illinois
I was a Lawnboy servicing dealer when H-D began selling them and I can't tell you how many Lawnboys were brought to me for warranty with burned-up F-series engines due to running 50:1 mix in them (many/most of them were commercial users, most homeowners who burned them up were from running them with raw gas). I can't tell you how many unhappy (to put it mildly) H-D customers I had to deal with because of this. I strongly recommend against running an F-series Lawnboy at 50:1. A 32:1 mix is particularly important because of E10 (as it was when MTBE was the primary oxygenate used in gas). The highest mix ratio using a quality modern air cooled 2-cycle oil that I would go with is 40:1. One might be able to get away running an F-series at 50:1 on E0, but why take the risk? Only the M-series can be safely run at 50:1 because it is a piston port engine (M-series mowers that had the auto-oiler ran at 64:1). On all C and D series Lawnboys, 16:1 was spelled-out in the owners manual. BTW, I really liked the F-series Lawnboys. I could rebuild the engines in under an hour by replacing the piston/rings (Rotary 23-2954), honing the metal transfer from the cylinder (if needed), and resealing them. They ran as-good-as-new afterward. I rebuilt hundreds of them this way. H-D would bring a truckload of customer returned lawnboys to me in the fall. I rebuilt them during the winter slow period and resold them as used in the spring. [/quote] Not only can the F model Lawn Boys be run on today's two cycle oil at 50:1, any non racing full needle bearing two cycle can also. The reason you can do this is because needle bearings require only a tiny amount of oil to function. Seized Lawn Boy engines were the result of the owner using straight gas with no oil. They may have done it once and realized their mistake, and were able to get it running again, but the damage was already done, and they don't always tell anyone about it. I have run all my Lawn Boy's at 50:1 for many recorded hours without a single scored piston or liner. I also use nothing but E10 gasoline.
 
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Originally Posted by Mike72
Not only can the F model Lawn Boys be run on today's two cycle oil at 50:1, any non racing full needle bearing two cycle can also. The reason you can do this is because needle bearings require only a tiny amount of oil to function. Seized Lawn Boy engines were the result of the owner using straight gas with no oil. They may have done it once and realized their mistake, and were able to get it running again, but the damage was already done, and they don't always tell anyone about it. I have run all my Lawn Boy's at 50:1 for many recorded hours without a single scored piston or liner. I also use nothing but E10 gasoline.
All I can say is that you have been lucky. One of the things that I did during engine failure analysis was to empty and inspect the float bowl contents. I can tell you for a fact that I saw quite a few seized Lawnboy F-series engines that had gas/oil mix in them when they seized (almost all of which were being used commercially along with other handheld equipment being run at 50:1). Early-on, I sent several engines back to the factory for failure analysis when I found mix in the carbs, they all came back as lubrication failures, warranty denied. To everyone everyone else reading this, the bottom line is this, on 2-cycle engines run the gas/oil mixture at whatever ratio the manufacturer recommends. You can always run a little MORE oil in your equipment, but if you do this you will likely have to contend with the engine/exhaust carboning-up
 
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78
Location
Illinois
No luck needed, 50:1 doesn't require it. Whatever those commercial users were mixing and using is unknown to me. Were the damaged engines straight gassed at some point and then later given a oil mix? And what kind of oil were they using? and who mixed it? A lot of questions here. I know the fuel oil mix I run in my Lawn Boys is 50:1 and i know how long they've been running with it, and have yet to see a lubrication related failure.
 
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944
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50:1 with modern 2-stroke oil will work in any 2-stroke engine in the last half a century - PROVIDED THE CARB IS TUNED PROPERLY. going from 16:1 to 50:1 ain't gonna work without a tune. When Art Martin was building 2-stroke hotsaws - he said the best power was usually made at about 42:1, more oil than that was taking away from the combustion.
 
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