Can control arm bushings get twisted after install

[Carnoobie]

My rear knuckle bushing (rear control arm). The main one. It connects the rear knuckles to the huge thick metal control arm going from side to side of the car.

I had the bolt taken out and bushing taken out 2 months ago. Had the bushing in our hands and inspected it closely. Was still in excellent condition, no cracks or corrosion. But we did notice that one of the ends where (when installed) sits parrelel to teh metal bracket that goes around it and holds it, had some wear and looked like it was rubbing. Not a lot of wear but you could see it.

So we anti seized the bolt and re-installed the bushing and bolt and creaking sound was gone. But never put any white lithium grease on the ends of the bushing. For like a day sound was gone, then came back.

So i was told even though the bushing still looked good that its possible that the bushing could be getting twisted a bit after the bolt is installed and tightened. Is that true? Its not like were overtightening the bolt! What would cause it to twist?

Cause im trying to figure out if i should replace these bushings.

 

[oilboy123]

Bushings are supposed to be tightened while the suspension is settled. In other words the car as it would sit normally. That's not always easily done. I put on Moog bushings recently and one had pretty substantial cracks on it. I'm not a happy camper.

 

[Carnoobie]

Originally Posted By: oilboy123
Bushings are supposed to be tightened while the suspension is settled. In other words the car as it would sit normally. That's not always easily done. I put on Moog bushings recently and one had pretty substantial cracks on it. I'm not a happy camper.


Ive had my front LCA bushings done a year ago and the car was on the hoist when new bushings put in and tightened

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
Ive had my front LCA bushings done a year ago and the car was on the hoist when new bushings put in and tightened

Not good. They're probably ruined by now.

When assembling the suspension, you install the suspension bolts, but leave them LOOSE. Then you lower the car, roll it back and forth a bit to settle the suspension, then tighten the bolts. Sometimes the bolts are almost impossible to get at with the car on the ground. In those cases, you use jacks to raise the suspension into its resting attitude while the car is elevated.

 

[Trav]

Yep tighten with the weight of the vehicle on the control arms.
Moog has gone down the in quality over the last few years. I bought some LCA bushings and "Made in China" was on the box.
I didn't use them instead i got Raybestos Pro (Spicer) which were made in USA.

Moog was always my go to brand but no more, now its Raybestos Pro (not the cheap service grade) or Deeza, both are minimum OEM or better.
The quality, fit and finish is head and shoulders over the new Moog stuff.

 

[Carnoobie]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
Ive had my front LCA bushings done a year ago and the car was on the hoist when new bushings put in and tightened

Not good. They're probably ruined by now.

When assembling the suspension, you install the suspension bolts, but leave them LOOSE. Then you lower the car, roll it back and forth a bit to settle the suspension, then tighten the bolts. Sometimes the bolts are almost impossible to get at with the car on the ground. In those cases, you use jacks to raise the suspension into its resting attitude while the car is elevated.



So now what do i do? I wonder if my bushing is being twisted.

Why do mechs say car does not need to be on ground?

 

[Carnoobie]

i dont know why anyone is not willing to do it with the car on the ground.

When i had my rear struts replaced last spring and the rear control arm bushing taken out and put back in 4 months ago....the bolts were tightened and torqued with the car still in the air. I was told car needs to be on the ground first or itll put extra strain on the bushings and that would most likely make sense with how you were suggesting the bushing could be getting bit twisted after install.

Also my RCA bushings actually dont need a press to take out, just single bolt, and slides out.

but every mech i know is debating me saying it does not make a difference. Cause what i would like to try is take out the rear bushing, and reinstall with car on ground.

 

[Carnoobie]

I dont know whats the truth. Talked to the shop who popped out this rear bushing out 2 months ago to inspect it and put back in. And they said, for honda OEM suspension stuff like bushings, car does not need to be lowered when torquing. He said only aftermarket.

Even though when they popped out this rear knuckle bushing 3 months ago, the bushing looked fine (no cracks or anything), but there was a bit of rub wear and tear on one of the ends of the bushing (end that sits parrelel to the metal bracket that goes around it when installed).

I told him i was thinking maybe when he torqued the bolt back in with the car in the air, then lowered the car, that it could twist the bushing and cause the rubbing. He said if the bushing wouldnt go in and sit straight then the bolt wouldnt be able to get put back in.

He said, replacing the bushing with a new OEM one wont fix it. He says to replace the rear control arm which comes with a bushing and that would forsure get rid of it. I dont get how a control arm would have anything to do with the rear knuckle bushing.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie


Why do mechs say car does not need to be on ground?


Probably because it's a lot faster and easier to just torque the bolts when the car is off the ground.

Not every bushing needs the car to be on the ground when torqued, but many of them do. I think it probably depends on the orientation of the bushing and how it's affected by suspension travel.

 

[mechtech2]

Hard urethane bushings can be tightened in the air.
This type needs lubrication.
Rubber type bushings flex, not turn. They need to be loaded on the ground before tightening.

 

[Carnoobie]

Originally Posted By: stephen9666
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie


Why do mechs say car does not need to be on ground?


Probably because it's a lot faster and easier to just torque the bolts when the car is off the ground.

Not every bushing needs the car to be on the ground when torqued, but many of them do. I think it probably depends on the orientation of the bushing and how it's affected by suspension travel.


I called the shop who specializes in Hondas, and they said with rubber OEM bushings, does not matter if in air or on ground but polyurethane has to be on the ground. [censored]? Does this not sound backwards?

He even said i could replace the bushing with another rubber OEM one and it wont fix it. He said to replace the rear control arm. [censored]?

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Hard urethane bushings can be tightened in the air.
This type needs lubrication.
Rubber type bushings flex, not turn. They need to be loaded on the ground before tightening.


See above, was told the oppsosite. Not sure which is true. Not saying youre wrong but man i hate getting different stories!!!

 

[rpn453]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
I called the shop who specializes in Hondas, and they said with rubber OEM bushings, does not matter if in air or on ground but polyurethane has to be on the ground. [censored]? Does this not sound backwards?

...

See above, was told the oppsosite. Not sure which is true. Not saying youre wrong but man i hate getting different stories!!!


mechtech2 - and everyone else in this thread - is correct.

With polyurethane, the bushing is free to rotate on the bolt. With rubber, the center of the bushing is locked in place and any suspension travel twists the bushing. If it's locked in place with the wheels hanging then it will be almost fully twisted at the car's neutral driving position. Further twisting when the suspension compresses will be beyond its design range and may damage the rubber.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
And they said, for honda OEM suspension stuff like bushings, car does not need to be lowered when torquing.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong. Totally wrong.

You need a better mechanic. The one you've got now sounds like a crook, or a total idiot. Or both.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Hard urethane bushings can be tightened in the air.
This type needs lubrication.
Rubber type bushings flex, not turn. They need to be loaded on the ground before tightening.

See above, was told the oppsosite. Not sure which is true. Not saying youre wrong but man i hate getting different stories!!!

Mechtech2 is correct.

The primary problem here is that you seem to have little in the way of mechanical aptitude. Just have a look at any OE Honda suspension bushing, and how it works with the rest of the system. It will then become abundantly clear why the suspension needs to be at its normal resting-attitude (car OFF hoist) when the bolts are tightened.

 

[Carnoobie]

Originally Posted By: Tegger
Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
And they said, for honda OEM suspension stuff like bushings, car does not need to be lowered when torquing.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong. Totally wrong.

You need a better mechanic. The one you've got now sounds like a crook, or a total idiot. Or both.



I have 4 mechs but might soon be 3. I cant believe what this guy told me. I knew it wasnt right. Rubber bushings have to be on the ground. But im gonna see another one of my mechs tommorow and hes going to retorque both bushing bolts with car on ground. He shouldnt have to take the bushing completely out right?

1) Jack up back car
2) Jackstands
3) Loosen both bolts to rear bushings til loose
4) Lower car to ground
5) torque to spec

Done?


You think i should get him to do the endlinks too? new ones put in last night.

When i took my car to the honda shop (the guy who told me wrong) 2 months ago, they popped out the rear knuckle bushing and inspected it. Bushing was still good condition, no cracks or anything but there was a bit of rubbing on the end and he said it was binding. Yes he told me this, it was binding. But he had no idea why. So what does he do? He reinstalls the bolt and torques it with the car in the air!

So i have a feeling tommorow when i retorque them with the car on the ground itll fix it.

 

[stephen9666]

Originally Posted By: rpn453

mechtech2 - and everyone else in this thread - is correct.

With polyurethane, the bushing is free to rotate on the bolt. With rubber, the center of the bushing is locked in place and any suspension travel twists the bushing. If it's locked in place with the wheels hanging then it will be almost fully twisted at the car's neutral driving position. Further twisting when the suspension compresses will be beyond its design range and may damage the rubber.


+1 on this explanation.
This is my understanding, as well. Others can tell me if I'm right or wrong. But my factory service manuals seem to agree with this explanation.

 

[Carnoobie]

Well the one mech at the honda shop who told me this, bye bye, adios, off my list. You just lost me as a customer.

 

[Tegger]

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
im gonna see another one of my mechs tommorow and hes going to retorque both bushing bolts with car on ground. He shouldnt have to take the bushing completely out right?

Not if it's still undamaged.

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
1) Jack up back car
2) Jackstands
3) Loosen both bolts to rear bushings til loose
4) Lower car to ground
5) torque to spec

Done?

Yes. But roll car back and forth a bit before tightening the bolts. The tires will be tucked-under when the car is first dropped, and you want to relieve that. And make sure the bushings aren't already damaged.

Originally Posted By: Carnoobie
You think i should get him to do the endlinks too? new ones put in last night.

No. Those are ball joints. Fine as-is.

 

[mechtech2]

Lets fix the problem.
You can loosen and retighten your rubber joints yourself [on the ground!] , with little time or pain.

 

[Carnoobie]

Mechtech i wish i was that confident but i dont even feel confident torquing my wheels. Well i dont even knw how but thats another story.

Anyways, Mech retorqued them and said on left side he could see it drop when he loosened the bolt, so what does that mean? He said it was binding.

He said the bolt was on way too tight.

He said for the struts dont need to be on the ground when torquing cause the bushing does not pivot like control arm bushings do. Is that true?