cam wear with synthetics?

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I don't think synthetics are responsible for cam wear, I have been a long time user in my gas vehicles, from a 100,00+ Mazda Protege' to a V6 Accord with over 500,000 miles, my Honda RC45 has 45000 miles, all with M-I and those are hard driven mileage. I don't think any respectable F-I team would use synthetics if they were related to premature cam wear.

Except for the cost disadvantage, don't see any other problems with synthetic.
 
Does Mobil 1 provide less start up protection compared to dino ? Piston engined aircraft don't seem to use synthetics for at least a couple of reasons, one being that when sitting for long periods thicker dino provides better protection.
 
Crower is the cam maker that says "no" to synthetics. I called the Crower factory, and spoke to one of the cam designers. Named Bill IIRC.

Bill said that the steep lobes of the high performance cams had definitely shown greater wear in their own tests.

To believe that the Crower folks are "full of it," you must believe that they A) do not know their own products, and B) did not properly test their products. Some of you here will believe just that, but I think it's safe to say that Crower may be on the right track.

Remember, too, that many of the race engines which survive for hours on the tracks on synthetic oils are not necessarily running these huge duration, steep lobed cams. So they do not stand as testament to the virtues of syns in all applications. And these engines will likely be rebuilt after one or two races, so such matters probably wouldn't come to light anyway.

One design of a diesel engine may be less dependent on barrier additives than another. For instance a Cummins ISX might show less cam wear on a syn than say a Caterpillar C-12 would, or a Mercedes, etc.

I think when the jury finally comes in, we'll all come to realize that there is indeed a relationship between reduced EP ability and synthetic base oils. Some engines will never miss this loss of barrier protection by virtue of their design--but others will. Whether it will be ultimately blamed on the syn's unique chemistry crowding out the ZDDP layer or whatever--it seems to be generally true that most syns show more valve train wear than dinos do (search the used oil analysis here and you'll see what I mean. Type in "because" and "cleaning" and you'll find the used oil analysis I'm referring to.
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). In most cases, the elevated iron isn't bad enough to worry about. But given the case of extreme pressure components, we may find that some synthetics may not protect as well as typical dinos do.

Dan
 
Web cams also says their cam warranty is void if used with synthetic oil.

The only motors I have ever seen with more than just polishing of the cam lobes had zerod out valve lash. Except for one. There was an old suzuki GSX-R750 that had seriously worn cams and rockers after about 50K miles. The owner said he had the valves adjusted at the dealer every 6K. when we got the motor the clearances were good, but everything in the top end was worn. I suspect that at some point in its life they were set up too tight. He also said he changed the oil every 1,500 miles with Golden Spectro.

On a more subjective note, when we tear apart race motors, one of the more experienced guys can tell which motors run M1. He says there is visibly more cylinder scuffing with synthetics. He builds and maintains a number of cosworth XB, and XD small methanol turbo V8's, and also some high horsepower SBCs and many high horsepower per liter sportbike motors.

He swears by a short OCI synthetic blend that no one else has ever heard of.

After working with this guy for 10 years, I still don't know what oils are best in the real world. I still run M1 in my street cars.
 
I've run across posts complaining of cam scuffing in Audis with Mobil 1 when club racing, but it was a PCMO and they 'fixed' the problem with Delvac 1. It'd be nice to separate out problems with PCMO vs HDEO synthetics, 30W vs 40W, etc.
 
quote:

Originally posted by CBR.worm:
Web cams also says their cam warranty is void if used with synthetic oil.

Group III or Group IV synths, or both?

I ask this question again, if GC, which is a true synth, shows consistently low wear even after a few dozen runs down the track during a 6000 mile UOA, then how can that blanket statement be true? I can't be...
 
They don't specify, there used to be a sheet of paper that shipped with the cams that just said the warranty will be void if synthetic oil is used.

Going to there website now, they recommend against synthetic oils. They recommend a quality petroleum SAE 30 racing oil such as kendall or valvoline. It would be interesting to find out from their engineers how they came to this recommendation.
 
Every form of motor/cycle racing are using PAO based synthetic oils with not only superb cam life but bearing life, etc. 95% of all NASCAR engines are running Mobil 1 0w30 with superb cam life/wear.
I have done engine teardowns on Cummins, CAT, and very, very neglected reefer engines all with many, many hours and there was no discernable cam wear.
BMW did a long term test with Mobil 1 a year or so ago and had *NO* measurable wear after 1,000,000 miles.
HOWEVER, IF valve lash/injector clearances are not correctly done on a regular basis, NO camshaft lubricated with whatever will live..
Thus, another question: what were the PM intervals for valve lash; in that harsh environment, this is critical to camshaft life...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
 
The only way a conventional oil would outperform a synthetic and show less wear is if the synthetic is poorly formulated IMO. I do find some of the statments by XOM and Shell about Esters competing with AW additives on the surface interesting. George, isn't 90% a bit high for the # of NASCAR using M1? BTW, are they still using M1R or are they on to something else?
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george agree 110%
other than "95% of all NASCAR engines are running Mobil 1 0w30 with superb cam life/wear."

With all the oil company "cars" they would run threr own brand but I can tell you they are NOT the same oils you buy at AZ LOL. Also I think 0w20 wts are getting a good look.

Bruce CLS
 
Hi,
HDEOs must have a minimum HTHS viscosity of 3.7cSt - this includes 5w30 and 10w30 viscosities. Oils that don't may cause excessive valve train wear in heavy diesels

In the case of DDC they must also pass a field performance test regime

In the last few days I enquired from my engine suppliers (both Euro and US - the worlds largest diesel engine manufacturers) regarding fleet use of synthetics and excessive cam system wear. There is NO reliable evidence in Australia or elsewhere to support the theory!
This also applies to engines running OCIs of from 60-130kkms

As a matter of interest I also carried out extensive research into the oft touted (by Ted (Tooslick)) "excessive cam component wear" and other excessive wear caused when using a Manufacturer Approved 0w-40 synthetic oil in various cars - again there is NO evidence of this even in engines on extended OCIs and with 300kkms plus on the clock

George mentioned Reefer Units - I work with the three largest Reefer Fleets in Australia and have done since 1980. In the period from 1980 until the present we have run synthetic oils on extended OCIs in various engines (Yanmar, Isuzu, MB, Kubota - diesel, direct & indirectly injected and some petrol Onans) and we have NEVER had "any" cam wear on engines out to sale at 20k hours (equivalent to 1 760 000kms)

The first Reefer engines run on synthetics in this country in 1980-82 were Isuzu, MB and Onan - we successfully used Castrol "R" synthetic 10w-60 then. No cam wear then either!!

Regards
Doug
 
quote:

Originally posted by JBJ:
I work on the Alaska Pipeline where nearly the entire fleet of hundreds of pickups, cars, cranes, semi's, dozers, boats, etc. runs on Mobil Delvac 1. Gas or diesel, they (mostly) all get the same oil. There is a complaint in the equipment maint. shop of excessive cam and valve train wear since using Delvac 1. Bearings and rings seem to hold up fine but they seem to replace more cams than normal. This has been brought up the the Mobil rep, without a good answer.

I've also run into a couple really well written articles on the pro and con of synthetics, specifically about cam wear. Has anyone on this board any experience with this? Is it a synthetic problem in general, or it is because Delvac 1 is a lighter oil (5w) as opposed to other synthetic multi-vis with are 15w (15-40)?


What are your company idling policies??? On the slope we are not allowed to continuously idle on the bullrail until temperatures drop below -30. Then we "must" idle our trucks. I have found that this is less wearing than a cold start.. take a truck that dies or is shut down before a cold spell(when a blow comes in I am not always going to go outside to "start" the truck). We know the block heaters are not that good at keeping the bottom of the pan warm. That first start at -35 or so is horrible to listen too. It must take 5 minutes for the oil to reach the top end.
The wonderfully low pour points of syn oils are pretty much void after a week or two of arctic service do to all the fuel in the oil(idling).

I think it's starts with not so fresh oil that do most the damage in arctic service.

[ August 12, 2005, 04:36 AM: Message edited by: Bryanccfshr ]
 
There have been questions about adjustment intervals, idle time, cold start, etc, etc.
This all misses the point. When the company standardized on Delvac 1 (5-40), the company did not say "Thou shalt idle more and take off when cold with greater acceleration, and Thou Shalt Not adjust lifters anymore." It would not be logical to suggest that several hundreds of drivers all of a sudden got together and conspired to change driving habits just make Delvac 1 look bad. Besides, these drivers (unless they are interested enougth to inquire) don't know what is in their engine, they just drive.

Following the trail of "Why" valve train wear exists more than it did before standardizing on Delvac 1 may be very interesting and helpful. But the original question had more to do with; is there experience of excessive valve train wear when using synthetics as opposed to dino.

I don't doubt may engines run a very long time on this synthetic or that synthetic. It just seems synthitics are not miracle cure the marketers would suggest they are. Great stuff? Certainly in some (many) applications. Is excessive valve train wear sometimes an issue? That is the question.
 
I always see more iron powder on my drain plug magnets after winter use than summer. If I used 10w30 instead of 0w30, I probably would not be able to start my car on really cold days, and the resulting wear would be avoided.

What temperature is needed to activate the anti-wear chemicals in Delvac 1?
 
Older data. Older Mobil 1 0W40 produces 3x the cam wear as Delvac, but 1/4 the wear on the VE. Too bad no dino HDEO was included.

http://oilanalysis.com/message_boar...name=Is+Mobil+1+hydrocracked?&messagenumber=1

The following numbers for cam wear come from three SAE publications: 95 1026 (1995), 98-144 (1998) and 2000-01-1993 (2000 Delvac 1) I tried to pull common test data from these publications to give some idea of the change in performance in the pre-TriSyn (1995), the TriSyn (1998) and Delvac 1. Again I chose to look at cam wear because this is the standard for all API/ACEA wear tests. The tests are: The IIIE Sequence API test. It represents high speed, high load and high temperature. The single duration test is 64 hours. Engine oils are typically designed to just pass this test. Naturallly double and quadrupple test times are extremely demanding and conventional oils would not be able to normally pass even a double length test. The VE test is a simulated low temperature stop and go test of 288 hour duration. The MB OM 602A is an ACEA test for Light duty diesel engines.


The first number represents the year, the second column represents the grade of oil, the third colume is the max average wear permitted in microinches. The final column is the actual wear of that oil. One problem is that they (Mobil) tested several versions of an oil and we never will know which is the final product-if any. I assume the ones with the bet results are close to the final product.
The year 2000 represents Delvac 1

SAE Sequence tests
IIIE


98 0w30 30 11
98 5w30 30 26
98 0W-40 30 21
2000 5W-40 30 7 Delvac 1


Double IIIE


95 5W-50 30 12
95 5W-50 30 28
95 5w30 30 21.5
98 0w30 30 10
98 0W-40 30 10


Quadruple IIIE


95 5w30 30 29.8


VE

98 0w30 130 103
98 5w30 130 74
98 0W-40 130 13
98 5W-40 130 54


Double VE

95 15W-50 130 26
95 15W-50 130 51
95 5W -50 130 24.9
95 5W -50 130 20
95 5W -30 130 12.5


ACEA MB OM 602A


1998 0w30 50 4
1998 0W-40 50 4
2000 5W-40 50 2.2 Delvac 1


Sooooo... In general I would say that the TriSyn is significantly better than the pre- TriSyn based on the head-to-head double length IIIE test. If you do a lot of stop and go in Alaska you might be better off with the pre-TriSyn however.

The 5W-40 Delvac 1, appears to be best of the bunch, followed by the TriSyn 0W-40, followed by the 0W-30. You can form your own opinion. Now if we can find equivalent data for competing oils we can go from here.


Al
 
Originally posted by TooSlick:
All the Amsoil formulations and the GC/0w-30 consistently show very low iron levels and both are PAO based products. Royal Purple also shows very low iron levels and it's also a PAO based oil.

These high iron levels are limited to the Mobil 1, xw-20/xw-30 grades - their 5w-40 and 15w-50 do just fine in this respect.

Most friction modified, gas engine oils now contain either boron or moly or both. So I don't think that's a valid reason at all, for the iron levels in Mobil 1.

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
[/QUO
 
Originally posted by TooSlick:
All the Amsoil formulations and the GC/0w-30 consistently show very low iron levels and both are PAO based products. Royal Purple also shows very low iron levels and it's also a PAO based oil.

These high iron levels are limited to the Mobil 1, xw-20/xw-30 grades - their 5w-40 and 15w-50 do just fine in this respect.

Most friction modified, gas engine oils now contain either boron or moly or both. So I don't think that's a valid reason at all, for the iron levels in Mobil 1.

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
[/QUO i don,t think you should have to put a non spec oil grade such as 15w50 in an engine just to keep wear down. last time i read an owners manual it had none of the weights you refer to. an as far as gc goes pay attention to sludge buildup. i have seen it after 20k in my frieds engine. a buick 3800.
 
quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeCLS:
Every form of motor/cycle racing are using PAO based synthetic oils with not only superb cam life but bearing life, etc. 95% of all NASCAR engines are running Mobil 1 0w30 with superb cam life/wear.
I have done engine teardowns on Cummins, CAT, and very, very neglected reefer engines all with many, many hours and there was no discernable cam wear.
BMW did a long term test with Mobil 1 a year or so ago and had *NO* measurable wear after 1,000,000 miles.
HOWEVER, IF valve lash/injector clearances are not correctly done on a regular basis, NO camshaft lubricated with whatever will live..
Thus, another question: what were the PM intervals for valve lash; in that harsh environment, this is critical to camshaft life...
George Morrison, STLE CLS


race engines such as in nascar will almost never wear a cam out in their short life. and if they have a problem and super heat the oil than the mobil 1r is indeed a plus for them. but i do not think 500 miles on a race engine can lead to any real world conclusions. and on the 1,000,000 mile mobil test, why do you think they used a bmw? maybe the best desingned engine in the world? i think that their test was the easiest thing possible on engine oil. i also think they would have had steller results with grp 1 walmart oil
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quote:

Originally posted by 1sttruck:
Does Mobil 1 provide less start up protection compared to conventional ? Piston engined aircraft don't seem to use synthetics for at least a couple of reasons, one being that when sitting for long periods thicker conventional provides better protection.

although mobil 1 flows better when cold,id does not cling to parts for long periods of time such as conventional oil. and yes it will give you more wear at startup when it is not extreamly cold.
 
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