CAFE costs are mounting...

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: 97prizm
Again our jerk of a president and congress thinks they Know all of the answers. Well there goes Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, and all the rest of the awesome exotics. Nows the time to take stand and Tell your local congressman that this is a dictatorship attitude fueled by the stupid enviro-hippie crowd. I'll be having a long chat tomorrow with mu=y local congress bum.

 

[KrisZ]

Quote:
Yes, because all our other national policies have worked out so well. Any other "5 year plans" you'd like to see put in place comrade?



This is exactly what the "central planners" don't realize. All they have to do is look at some recent history to see how central planning worked out.

My parents lived in a country where you had to have government’s approval to buy a car, commercial truck, a tractor or farm equipment. The government decided what you needed and what machine would fulfill those needs. Any guesses how those decisions panned out?

Again, central planners (i.e. the smart people), go back to history books, as you obviously have no clue what you want to impose on your fellow citizens.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: engineerscott
Say I've got a family of 4 or 5 and I want to buy a minivan. I'm not going to be very happy lugging around the wife and three kids in a Prius after all, certainly not on a long trip. How much is my 56 mpg mini van going to cost?


Heck, my family only ever had had a Renault 16, Holden UC Torana, or a Nissan Pulsar for two adults and 3 children (plus a wheelchair) for our family cars, which included many 800-1000km trips in a single sitting.

A Prius is positively spacious compared to those cars.


Exactly. Prius like most other cars is rated for 5 adults. Now, if those adults are 300 lbs each then it's a whole different story.

The problem with USA is that we have too many people who were brainwashed by commercials that driving full size truck, SUV or huge minivan is the basic right and only American way.

Then, no one can afford the market fuel prices and USA goes for wars for oil, that bankrupts the country and our children and grandchildren are screwed for life and will be slaves for Chinese.

Thanks!!!!

True patriots would realize how oil dependency is killing this country.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: engineerscott
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Interesting how a propaganda lie in the first post started this thread that refuses to die.


So, refute the lie with evidence. Isn't that what people who know the truth do when someone lies?



I did that somewhere in the middle of this monster thread but nobody cared to hear the truth. But I will repeat the truth to you again.

I recently purchased 2010 toyota prius for $21k that delivers 55 MPG in city. This refutes the lie in the first post that reads:

"Sharply higher fuel efficiency standards by 2025 could force vehicle prices up by nearly $10,000"

My point is one can produce fuel efficient cars at similar cost or cheaper than gas guzzlers.

But again, this will be ignored again as this discussion is not about truth finding.


No response to my post again. Hard to argue with truth.

 

[KrisZ]

What truth are you talking about?

So what that ONE CAR in Toyota's stable meets the future CAFE standard, do you understand FLEET CAFE mandate?

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
What truth are you talking about?

So what that ONE CAR in Toyota's stable meets the future CAFE standard, do you understand FLEET CAFE mandate?


His point is that the technology is here and its marginal cost is not as great as the propaganda piece in the original post claimed.

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
The problem with USA is that we have too many people who were brainwashed by commercials that driving full size truck, SUV or huge minivan is the basic right and only American way.

Then, no one can afford the market fuel prices and USA goes for wars for oil, that bankrupts the country and our children and grandchildren are screwed for life and will be slaves for Chinese.

Thanks!!!!

True patriots would realize how oil dependency is killing this country.

No, the problem is people like yourself thinking that they are smart enough (you're not) and have a right (you don't) to tell people what they ought to drive. And you won't stop there. You're the same people that want to tell the public how much water they can use when they flush the toilet and a thousand other regulations large and small that micro manage the average citizen's life. You're a busybody nanny that can't mind your own business.

Oil dependency is bad, but what's really killing this country is a $14+ Trillion national debt (that's 100% of annual GDP btw). That is what this massively overreaching government has produced. But, apparently you want more.

Btw, if oil dependency is bad, why aren't we doing more exploration and drilling in this country?

Just who are you to tell other people what to do?

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: engineerscott
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Interesting how a propaganda lie in the first post started this thread that refuses to die.


So, refute the lie with evidence. Isn't that what people who know the truth do when someone lies?



I did that somewhere in the middle of this monster thread but nobody cared to hear the truth. But I will repeat the truth to you again.

I recently purchased 2010 toyota prius for $21k that delivers 55 MPG in city. This refutes the lie in the first post that reads:

"Sharply higher fuel efficiency standards by 2025 could force vehicle prices up by nearly $10,000"

My point is one can produce fuel efficient cars at similar cost or cheaper than gas guzzlers.

But again, this will be ignored again as this discussion is not about truth finding.


No response to my post again. Hard to argue with truth.


You're a little slow on the uptake friendly_jacek. Response was post #2302099 on page 14.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: CivicFan
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
What truth are you talking about?

So what that ONE CAR in Toyota's stable meets the future CAFE standard, do you understand FLEET CAFE mandate?


His point is that the technology is here and its marginal cost is not as great as the propaganda piece in the original post claimed.


Marginal cost? Again, DO YOU UNDERSTAND FLEET CAFE MANDATE?

How many times does this have to be asked before it sinks in?


There is a difference between putting out one or two car models and making very little or even loosing money on them because the rest of the GAS fleet sales and government grants subsidizes it, and making your whole line up with that expensive technology.

This is something some of you guys just don't get. Toyota, Nissan and all others are subsidizing their hybrid and electric cars with government money and profits from gas models. When you have VW and Ford suits tell media that electric and hybrid is not feasible from a business point of view, there most be something to it.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: engineerscott
No, the problem is people like yourself thinking that they are smart enough (you're not) and have a right (you don't) to tell people what they ought to drive. And you won't stop there. You're the same people that want to tell the public how much water they can use when they flush the toilet and a thousand other regulations large and small that micro manage the average citizen's life. You're a busybody nanny that can't mind your own business.

Oil dependency is bad, but what's really killing this country is a $14+ Trillion national debt (that's 100% of annual GDP btw). That is what this massively overreaching government has produced. But, apparently you want more.

Btw, if oil dependency is bad, why aren't we doing more exploration and drilling in this country?

Just who you to tell other people what to do?

The point of all these regulations is to insure that you and the other 307,000,000 people in the U.S. don't turn your country into an environmental diaster... Who are you to decide that everyone should have smoggy air to breathe, or make the water treatment plant 4 times as big as it needs to be so you can have a 40 gallon flush khrapper?
To have a minimal level of environmental quality, we can't have a free for all to be as wasteful or as polluting as we can afford. There are lots of places on earth where you can live this way, but I doubt you'd want to live there.

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Marginal cost? Again, DO YOU UNDERSTAND FLEET CAFE MANDATE?

How many times does this have to be asked before it sinks in?

There is a difference between putting out one or two car models and making very little or even loosing money on them because the rest of the GAS fleet sales and government grants subsidizes it, and making your whole line up with that expensive technology.

This is something some of you guys just don't get. Toyota, Nissan and all others are subsidizing their hybrid and electric cars with government money and profits from gas models. When you have VW and Ford suits tell media that electric and hybrid is not feasible from a business point of view, there most be something to it.

Spot on. I might add, that the technology exists to make a Prius sized car get Prius gas mileage. The technology to make a full sized car or truck get Prius gas mileage does not exist and would require considerable development and would increase the cost of the resulting vehicle.

Also, to reiterate what you stated, hybrid cars are currently being subsidized to some extent through direct government subsidies and through the profits automakers currently make on their regular gasoline fleet. This would obviously change if the entire fleet had to go to hybrid technology.

Finally, I think the ultimate question remains.... why do these busybodies think they have the right to tell other people what to drive in the first place?

 

[engineerscott]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan

The point of all these regulations is to insure that you and the other 307,000,000 people in the U.S. don't turn your country into an environmental diaster... Who the [censored] are you to decide that everyone should have smoggy air to breathe, or make the water treatment plant 4 times as big as it needs to be so you can have a 40 gallon flush khrapper?
To have a minimal level of environmental quality, we can't have a free for all to be as wasteful or as polluting as we can afford. There are lots of places on earth where you can live this way, but I doubt you'd want to live there.


So, in spite of the fact that the environment has been getting better for decades, and automobile miles driven per year have been going up, you think we all need to drive Priuses or we'll have an environmental disaster? Really?

Seems like we've suddenly moved the goal posts. A minute ago it was about the end of oil and the evils of foreign oil dependency.

I have no issue with valid environmental laws. I have no right to pollute the air you breath. But currently, fuel efficiency and auto gas mileage are not much correlated. My 30 mpg Hyundai pollutes very little and I think you've not proven your case that I should drive a Prius in order to reduce the amount of pollution in your air.

With respect to things like water conservation, I think mandating low flush toilet nationally make no sense. I live in an area where water is rather plentiful. Why should I be required to have a low flush toilet because water is not plentiful in the desert southwest. As long as I'm willing to pay for the extra water, that should be my business.

Also, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that regions that have chronic water availability problems are almost without exception areas where the federal government is essentially subsidizing the cost of water through large federal water projects (dams, aqueducts, etc.). Southern California and Los Vegas are prime examples of this phenomena. In these areas you have a much higher population density than would otherwise occur than if the government had not intruded and artificially driven down the costs of water (or more accurately, spread the high cost of that water amongst the bulk of the American taxpayers). So you see, you have these unintended consequences of federal policy that actually cause these water shortages in the first place that the government then responds to by mandating low flush toilets on a national basis. This would all have been avoid had this simply been left to the market in the first place.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: engineerscott
No response to my post again. Hard to argue with truth.

You're a little slow on the uptake friendly_jacek. Response was post #2302099 on page 14.

He's not slow...he's just purposely ignoring those who have given him a response to his flawed logic. He got his answer back on page five, and then again from you...I wonder why he just ignores it.

Again friendly, since you seem to ignore it every time you get a response....please explain the huge difference between a fleet average and a single models average mpg...With all those Prius sales, Toyotas 2009 fleet average is still in the range of 34 mpg, as I asked when you first posted this faulty logic of yours, how does Toyota get to 56 mpg from here without drastic changes to their model line up?

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: engineerscott
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Has CAFE prevented anyone on this thread from purchasing the vehicle they wanted? Ever?


Sure they have. They're vehicles that can't be brought to market because they would screw up the maker's fleet averages. Also, don't forget the Gas Guzzler tax. Undoubtedly that tax has put the occasional Corvette out of someone's price range.

Effects like these tend to be hidden, but rest assured they exist.



Last time I looked at a Corvette it didn't have the gas guzzler tax on it. Vette's do about 30 on the highway, ZR1 might have it though. However last time I looked at a Ferrari it did.

Somehow I don't think a few grand on a $250k car is going to dissuade anyone from purchasing one, but I don't know its possible I guess. Considering they are all pre sold a few years out I'm going to say its not having much of an affect.

I would argue that the EPA has prevent a number of nice diesels from being imported. Their importation and sale would actually be inline with CAFE so you don't have much of an argument their.

So aside from your generalities can you name one car that you want to buy that is bared from sale in this country from CAFE?

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


No response to my post again. Hard to argue with truth.


Plenty of responses, the problem is it's hard to refute someone with such flawed logic.

 

[hattaresguy]

Originally Posted By: engineerscott
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Lastly I do beleive the American public on a whole is not that highly educated and has a very short memory. Essentially they plan about as far ahead as the next couple of paychecks.


Your disregard for the American public is duly noted.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

So asking them to curb their fuel use and change their life style because fuel is going to go up isn't a reality. They just see what it costs today, and run out and buy whatever they want. Than when it goes up the Visa stops working and they cry. As has been shown again and again when fuel prices fluctuate, as soon as they come down SUV sales take off again.


And of course right thinking people like yourself know what is best and therefore should assume a parental role over the public.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

I don't really care except it affects me


There's a surprise.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

because the economy tanks when they stop running the visa at the mall every weekend.


So the economy has tanked because the American public has maxed out their Visa cards, unlike what the smart people that run the government have done with the national debt. Which one do you think has a bigger effect? I'll give you three guesses.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

So since it does affect me, and everyone else in this country if they realize it or not, I do think as a collective their should be a little bit of planning for that day.


A "collective" you say. So, we're not a nation of individuals, but instead are all a part of your collective. Do tell.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

From a patriotic perspective I don't like to see my country beholden for its energy needs to people in other country's. I think its bad policy, and shows weakness.


Then why don't you suggest something productive, like actually drilling for oil in this country.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

A good start would be a national energy policy.


Yes, because all our other national policies have worked out so well. Any other "5 year plans" you'd like to see put in place comrade?



I have suggested many things, you have suggested nothing other than doing whatever we want and drilling more. Oh and your knee jerk rebuttals which I find pretty funny.

Doesn't seem like you have any ideas other than some chest thumping about rights.

Whats wrong with a national energy policy? Who said increased domestic drilling wouldn't be a part of it?

BTW do you know any Saudi's? I was at a dinner party one time and one of them was showing me his new watch, it was rather nice, cost $250k. Remember that next time you fill up your vehicle. They really do appreciate it, good people, he had a nice boat to, about 230ft.

I simply wish that money would stay in this country, I rather see some Americans get it, but I guess you don't since your attitude is screw it burn the oil.

 

[hattaresguy]

For example a scary communist national energy policy to all you guys would look like this:

We drill more to increase domestic production...which were doing but it takes a long time to come online.

We invest heavily in alternative technologies, like CNG for example but there are many.

We invest in research to improve these technologies, also we sell them to other countries.

Through taxation or market movements fuel becomes expensive, shifting consumers onto these new technologies. You don't really need to regulate vehicles, the price of fuel will do that anyway. We know that demand for vehicles that get low mileage drops off a cliff when gas is above $4 a gallon.

Lastly we tell the oil exporting nations to go pound sand, and stop wasting treasure and blood on that sink hole part of the world known as the Middle East.

Sounds like its right out of Stalin's play book to me.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: engineerscott
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Has CAFE prevented anyone on this thread from purchasing the vehicle they wanted? Ever?


Sure they have. They're vehicles that can't be brought to market because they would screw up the maker's fleet averages. Also, don't forget the Gas Guzzler tax. Undoubtedly that tax has put the occasional Corvette out of someone's price range.

Effects like these tend to be hidden, but rest assured they exist.



Last time I looked at a Corvette it didn't have the gas guzzler tax on it. Vette's do about 30 on the highway, ZR1 might have it though. However last time I looked at a Ferrari it did.

Somehow I don't think a few grand on a $250k car is going to dissuade anyone from purchasing one, but I don't know its possible I guess. Considering they are all pre sold a few years out I'm going to say its not having much of an affect.

I would argue that the EPA has prevent a number of nice diesels from being imported. Their importation and sale would actually be inline with CAFE so you don't have much of an argument their.

So aside from your generalities can you name one car that you want to buy that is bared from sale in this country from CAFE?


I think a lot of people are missing the point that this particular CAFE mandate is what is the real problem, it's too aggresive of a number for the existing technology.

Up until now the increases have been incremental, and for the most part in line with what the manufacturers felt was achievable. This huge increase, over such a short time frame will be a problem for many manufacturers, especially firms like BMW and Daimler. Moving forward, there WILL be cars that are dropped from the NA lineup if this huge jump in mandates is approved.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: engineerscott
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Lastly I do beleive the American public on a whole is not that highly educated and has a very short memory. Essentially they plan about as far ahead as the next couple of paychecks.


Your disregard for the American public is duly noted.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

So asking them to curb their fuel use and change their life style because fuel is going to go up isn't a reality. They just see what it costs today, and run out and buy whatever they want. Than when it goes up the Visa stops working and they cry. As has been shown again and again when fuel prices fluctuate, as soon as they come down SUV sales take off again.


And of course right thinking people like yourself know what is best and therefore should assume a parental role over the public.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

I don't really care except it affects me


There's a surprise.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

because the economy tanks when they stop running the visa at the mall every weekend.


So the economy has tanked because the American public has maxed out their Visa cards, unlike what the smart people that run the government have done with the national debt. Which one do you think has a bigger effect? I'll give you three guesses.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

So since it does affect me, and everyone else in this country if they realize it or not, I do think as a collective their should be a little bit of planning for that day.


A "collective" you say. So, we're not a nation of individuals, but instead are all a part of your collective. Do tell.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

From a patriotic perspective I don't like to see my country beholden for its energy needs to people in other country's. I think its bad policy, and shows weakness.


Then why don't you suggest something productive, like actually drilling for oil in this country.

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy

A good start would be a national energy policy.


Yes, because all our other national policies have worked out so well. Any other "5 year plans" you'd like to see put in place comrade?



I have suggested many things, you have suggested nothing other than doing whatever we want and drilling more. Oh and your knee jerk rebuttals which I find pretty funny.

Doesn't seem like you have any ideas other than some chest thumping about rights.

Whats wrong with a national energy policy? Who said increased domestic drilling wouldn't be a part of it?

BTW do you know any Saudi's? I was at a dinner party one time and one of them was showing me his new watch, it was rather nice, cost $250k. Remember that next time you fill up your vehicle. They really do appreciate it, good people, he had a nice boat to, about 230ft.

I simply wish that money would stay in this country, I rather see some Americans get it, but I guess you don't since your attitude is screw it burn the oil.


You are wasting you time. This is just like religion or politics. It's sad how brainwashed people are and wont listen to reasoning. This is why this country will go bust soon. USA is next in line for a default after Greeks and the rest of PIIGS.

Over and out!

 

[LS2JSTS]

Any national energy policy should include massive investment into Nuclear energy.

We should take all the money we are throwing away on wind farms and invest in new nuclear technology.


My national plan would call for 75% of our total electric needs should come from Nuclear power by 2030.

If the greenies want the feds to force us to build and buy electric cars, then wouldn't it be wise to start building to meet that demand today?

Of course it would, but do you hear anything like that coming out of DC? No, instead we get them bashing the manufacturers and burdening them with unattainable mandates pulled from their collectives arses. No real planning, no real hard decisions being made...just more kicking the can down the road from the stuff shirts!