CAFE and synthetic oil requirements.
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Originally Posted By: sinclair1
Yes I believe the growing oe push for synthetics are cafe driven. I do because they can make them thinner than they can Dion oils.for example 0w20 is not available in dino. At least not yet here in the states
If that's the case why are European oem's following this trend in Europe where there is no CAFE?
thinner lubes reduce drag which as a by-product burns less fuel. So it's fuel economy driven. Not necessarily CAFE driven.
Yes I believe the growing oe push for synthetics are cafe driven. I do because they can make them thinner than they can Dion oils.for example 0w20 is not available in dino. At least not yet here in the states
If that's the case why are European oem's following this trend in Europe where there is no CAFE?
thinner lubes reduce drag which as a by-product burns less fuel. So it's fuel economy driven. Not necessarily CAFE driven.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: CT8
If the starting temps are below 0F for example the 0W20 will be able to be travel from the sump to the oil pump quicker etc. here is no doubt that EPA regulations has all to do with Xw-20 oils
Nope.
Well not if the oil pump is a typical positive displacement type.
Well actually we need do do a little experiment cause you need to figure this out for your self. As the oil thickens as the temp drops. We are talking well below freezing . The big thing is how long it takes for the oil to reach the pump. The oil pump creates a vacuum then the oil flows from the sump to the pump. Get a real thick milkshake put a straw in it and suck what happens? Let the milkshake reach room temps then with the same size straw suck. Tell me the results.
Experiments already done, the "W" has to do with the extreme cold end performance.
I brought some tests and commentary into this thread
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3753991/Re:_Start_up_protection_differ#Post3753991
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: CT8
If the starting temps are below 0F for example the 0W20 will be able to be travel from the sump to the oil pump quicker etc. here is no doubt that EPA regulations has all to do with Xw-20 oils
Nope.
Well not if the oil pump is a typical positive displacement type.
Well actually we need do do a little experiment cause you need to figure this out for your self. As the oil thickens as the temp drops. We are talking well below freezing . The big thing is how long it takes for the oil to reach the pump. The oil pump creates a vacuum then the oil flows from the sump to the pump. Get a real thick milkshake put a straw in it and suck what happens? Let the milkshake reach room temps then with the same size straw suck. Tell me the results.
Experiments already done, the "W" has to do with the extreme cold end performance.
I brought some tests and commentary into this thread
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3753991/Re:_Start_up_protection_differ#Post3753991
Originally Posted By: mongo161
Well, I do my part to increase sales of 0w20, Mobil 1, AFE.
I'm currently running a blended mix of 3 quarts of Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 with 3 quarts of M1, 15w50, and I notice the difference immediately.
What difference are you noticing, and between what?
Well, I do my part to increase sales of 0w20, Mobil 1, AFE.
I'm currently running a blended mix of 3 quarts of Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 with 3 quarts of M1, 15w50, and I notice the difference immediately.
What difference are you noticing, and between what?
Originally Posted By: sinclair1
Yes I believe the growing oe push for synthetics are cafe driven. I do because they can make them thinner than they can Dion oils.for example 0w20 is not available in dino. At least not yet here in the states
So you can make a thinner synthetic than conventional?
And a synthetic 0W-20 is thinner than a conventional 5W-20? Thinner how?
Yes I believe the growing oe push for synthetics are cafe driven. I do because they can make them thinner than they can Dion oils.for example 0w20 is not available in dino. At least not yet here in the states
So you can make a thinner synthetic than conventional?
And a synthetic 0W-20 is thinner than a conventional 5W-20? Thinner how?
Originally Posted By: TFB1
Originally Posted By: Clevy
If the pick up tube is submerged in oil and the pump is primed then it makes no difference whether you measure volume before or after the pump,each stroke moves the same volume of oil.
Unless there is cavitation or the pump lost its prime. Then it'll suck air.
BUT there is a pressure relief valve in pump or maybe block that dumps a portion of the oil back into pan if it can't be pushed through the oiling system...
Not only that, but thicker oil may be pumped at given rate(PD Pump) but thick oil when cold does not flow through the engine at the same rate as a 0-20. It's much slower to flow to the cam area than 0-20.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
If the pick up tube is submerged in oil and the pump is primed then it makes no difference whether you measure volume before or after the pump,each stroke moves the same volume of oil.
Unless there is cavitation or the pump lost its prime. Then it'll suck air.
BUT there is a pressure relief valve in pump or maybe block that dumps a portion of the oil back into pan if it can't be pushed through the oiling system...
Not only that, but thicker oil may be pumped at given rate(PD Pump) but thick oil when cold does not flow through the engine at the same rate as a 0-20. It's much slower to flow to the cam area than 0-20.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Not only that, but thicker oil may be pumped at given rate(PD Pump) but thick oil when cold does not flow through the engine at the same rate as a 0-20. It's much slower to flow to the cam area than 0-20.
ONLY WHEN NEAR THE LIMITS OF PUMPABILITY ... at normal (even freezing freezing normal, around 0C) temperatures, there is no difference.
If you've got some proof otherwise, I'll happily look at it 'though.
Not only that, but thicker oil may be pumped at given rate(PD Pump) but thick oil when cold does not flow through the engine at the same rate as a 0-20. It's much slower to flow to the cam area than 0-20.
ONLY WHEN NEAR THE LIMITS OF PUMPABILITY ... at normal (even freezing freezing normal, around 0C) temperatures, there is no difference.
If you've got some proof otherwise, I'll happily look at it 'though.
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: mongo161
Well, I do my part to increase sales of 0w20, Mobil 1, AFE.
I'm currently running a blended mix of 3 quarts of Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 with 3 quarts of M1, 15w50, and I notice the difference immediately.
What difference are you noticing, and between what?
I noticed a difference immediately when I paid for the oils. I got the Mobil oils on closeout from the KMart closings. About $2.00 a quart or $12.00 for a sump full of smooth goodness with cash left in my wallet.
Originally Posted By: mongo161
Well, I do my part to increase sales of 0w20, Mobil 1, AFE.
I'm currently running a blended mix of 3 quarts of Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 with 3 quarts of M1, 15w50, and I notice the difference immediately.
What difference are you noticing, and between what?
I noticed a difference immediately when I paid for the oils. I got the Mobil oils on closeout from the KMart closings. About $2.00 a quart or $12.00 for a sump full of smooth goodness with cash left in my wallet.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: sinclair1
Yes I believe the growing oe push for synthetics are cafe driven. I do because they can make them thinner than they can Dion oils.for example 0w20 is not available in dino. At least not yet here in the states
So you can make a thinner synthetic than conventional?
And a synthetic 0W-20 is thinner than a conventional 5W-20? Thinner how?
Generally a synthetic 0w20 will be thinner than a conventional 5w20 because its higher Viscosity Index will make the oil thinner during warmup, thereby saving some fuel due to less parasitic drag from the oil pump, and lower viscous drag in the bearings. Will it save enough fuel to pay for the difference in cost between conventional and synthetic? Maybe enough to account for those 3 drops of gas you dropped on the ground when pulling the nozzle out of the tank on your last fillup.
Originally Posted By: sinclair1
Yes I believe the growing oe push for synthetics are cafe driven. I do because they can make them thinner than they can Dion oils.for example 0w20 is not available in dino. At least not yet here in the states
So you can make a thinner synthetic than conventional?
And a synthetic 0W-20 is thinner than a conventional 5W-20? Thinner how?
Generally a synthetic 0w20 will be thinner than a conventional 5w20 because its higher Viscosity Index will make the oil thinner during warmup, thereby saving some fuel due to less parasitic drag from the oil pump, and lower viscous drag in the bearings. Will it save enough fuel to pay for the difference in cost between conventional and synthetic? Maybe enough to account for those 3 drops of gas you dropped on the ground when pulling the nozzle out of the tank on your last fillup.
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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Generally a synthetic 0w20 will be thinner than a conventional 5w20 because its higher Viscosity Index will make the oil thinner during warmup, thereby saving some fuel due to less parasitic drag from the oil pump, and lower viscous drag in the bearings. Will it save enough fuel to pay for the difference in cost between conventional and synthetic? Maybe enough to account for those 3 drops of gas you dropped on the ground when pulling the nozzle out of the tank on your last fillup.
Thanks for the response. Does that at all help to explain why my 1NZ-FE is back specified to 0W-20 but my old 1MZ-FE only to 5W-20? I've never figured out why.
Generally a synthetic 0w20 will be thinner than a conventional 5w20 because its higher Viscosity Index will make the oil thinner during warmup, thereby saving some fuel due to less parasitic drag from the oil pump, and lower viscous drag in the bearings. Will it save enough fuel to pay for the difference in cost between conventional and synthetic? Maybe enough to account for those 3 drops of gas you dropped on the ground when pulling the nozzle out of the tank on your last fillup.
Thanks for the response. Does that at all help to explain why my 1NZ-FE is back specified to 0W-20 but my old 1MZ-FE only to 5W-20? I've never figured out why.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: sinclair1
Yes I believe the growing oe push for synthetics are cafe driven. I do because they can make them thinner than they can Dion oils.for example 0w20 is not available in dino. At least not yet here in the states
If that's the case why are European oem's following this trend in Europe where there is no CAFE?
thinner lubes reduce drag which as a by-product burns less fuel. So it's fuel economy driven. Not necessarily CAFE driven.
Yearly and Ownership taxes are often based on the CO2 exhaust (in grams per km). This means any gram reduction per km compared to the competition will attract customers.
Originally Posted By: sinclair1
Yes I believe the growing oe push for synthetics are cafe driven. I do because they can make them thinner than they can Dion oils.for example 0w20 is not available in dino. At least not yet here in the states
If that's the case why are European oem's following this trend in Europe where there is no CAFE?
thinner lubes reduce drag which as a by-product burns less fuel. So it's fuel economy driven. Not necessarily CAFE driven.
Yearly and Ownership taxes are often based on the CO2 exhaust (in grams per km). This means any gram reduction per km compared to the competition will attract customers.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: tig1
Not only that, but thicker oil may be pumped at given rate(PD Pump) but thick oil when cold does not flow through the engine at the same rate as a 0-20. It's much slower to flow to the cam area than 0-20.
ONLY WHEN NEAR THE LIMITS OF PUMPABILITY ... at normal (even freezing freezing normal, around 0C) temperatures, there is no difference.
If you've got some proof otherwise, I'll happily look at it 'though.
how about this...
We have a bulk oil tank, containing 5w-40 synthetic. there are 2 nozzles to fill the sumps. both are using the same pump in the bulk tank, but the second one has longer piping (1/2" or 3/4", have to take a closer look to be certain).
filling a sump from the second nozzle takes at least twice as long as it does from the first nozzle, in winter. Now it's summer the difference is negligible. In reality there's only 20°C or so difference in bulk oil temperature between summer and winter.
The pump doesn't have an over pressure relief. If it did, I might not be able to use the second nozzle in winter.
Not so much the difference between the nozzles is interesting, as is the influence of temperute on the pressure loss.
Anecdotal, but real.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Not only that, but thicker oil may be pumped at given rate(PD Pump) but thick oil when cold does not flow through the engine at the same rate as a 0-20. It's much slower to flow to the cam area than 0-20.
ONLY WHEN NEAR THE LIMITS OF PUMPABILITY ... at normal (even freezing freezing normal, around 0C) temperatures, there is no difference.
If you've got some proof otherwise, I'll happily look at it 'though.
how about this...
We have a bulk oil tank, containing 5w-40 synthetic. there are 2 nozzles to fill the sumps. both are using the same pump in the bulk tank, but the second one has longer piping (1/2" or 3/4", have to take a closer look to be certain).
filling a sump from the second nozzle takes at least twice as long as it does from the first nozzle, in winter. Now it's summer the difference is negligible. In reality there's only 20°C or so difference in bulk oil temperature between summer and winter.
The pump doesn't have an over pressure relief. If it did, I might not be able to use the second nozzle in winter.
Not so much the difference between the nozzles is interesting, as is the influence of temperute on the pressure loss.
Anecdotal, but real.
It doesn't matter at all to me. My truck could safely run on 5W-20 conventional year round, but it would also use much more oil. Honestly I noticed no fuel economy difference in moving from 5w30 conventional to 10W-40 HM. Makes me wonder how much of a non issue this all really is. In the end, I'd rather sacrifice an immeasurable fraction of fuel economy than run a thinner oil that's going to burn faster. I'd also rather run a thicker oil with a decent add pack than a super thin oil with a fantastic add pack.
the "synthetics" they tout are good, but only a cleaner crude oil group III not superior real man made group IV + V base oils. i am not a fan of the watery oils, girlfriends 2013 malibu was eating the dexos spec 5-20 oil, 3 qts in 2,000 miles, enter 10-30 no more oil burning!!!!
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Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: tig1
Not only that, but thicker oil may be pumped at given rate(PD Pump) but thick oil when cold does not flow through the engine at the same rate as a 0-20. It's much slower to flow to the cam area than 0-20.
ONLY WHEN NEAR THE LIMITS OF PUMPABILITY ... at normal (even freezing freezing normal, around 0C) temperatures, there is no difference.
If you've got some proof otherwise, I'll happily look at it 'though.
how about this...
We have a bulk oil tank, containing 5w-40 synthetic. there are 2 nozzles to fill the sumps. both are using the same pump in the bulk tank, but the second one has longer piping (1/2" or 3/4", have to take a closer look to be certain).
filling a sump from the second nozzle takes at least twice as long as it does from the first nozzle, in winter. Now it's summer the difference is negligible. In reality there's only 20°C or so difference in bulk oil temperature between summer and winter.
The pump doesn't have an over pressure relief. If it did, I might not be able to use the second nozzle in winter.
Not so much the difference between the nozzles is interesting, as is the influence of temperute on the pressure loss.
Anecdotal, but real.
A fair anecdote, for what happens when the galleries are full, but tig1 keeps claiming that the presence of oil to the cam is better with 0W20.
Chart below includes the time that it takes for the PD pump to get oil to the rocker arms with a variety of oil grades and temperatures.
As can be seen, the time for the SAE30 at 30F, and the 5W20 at 12F are essentially the same.
The 5W20, or a 0W, are not going to provide any better times at getting oil to the rockers at 50F than the SAE30, the basis of tig1s ongoing claims.
The results are different at the lower extremes of an oil's capabilities, as can be seen.
The SAE30, 10W30, and 5W20 perform about the same at 20F, 9F, and -11F respectively, demonstrating what the "W" means in oil grades.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: tig1
Not only that, but thicker oil may be pumped at given rate(PD Pump) but thick oil when cold does not flow through the engine at the same rate as a 0-20. It's much slower to flow to the cam area than 0-20.
ONLY WHEN NEAR THE LIMITS OF PUMPABILITY ... at normal (even freezing freezing normal, around 0C) temperatures, there is no difference.
If you've got some proof otherwise, I'll happily look at it 'though.
how about this...
We have a bulk oil tank, containing 5w-40 synthetic. there are 2 nozzles to fill the sumps. both are using the same pump in the bulk tank, but the second one has longer piping (1/2" or 3/4", have to take a closer look to be certain).
filling a sump from the second nozzle takes at least twice as long as it does from the first nozzle, in winter. Now it's summer the difference is negligible. In reality there's only 20°C or so difference in bulk oil temperature between summer and winter.
The pump doesn't have an over pressure relief. If it did, I might not be able to use the second nozzle in winter.
Not so much the difference between the nozzles is interesting, as is the influence of temperute on the pressure loss.
Anecdotal, but real.
A fair anecdote, for what happens when the galleries are full, but tig1 keeps claiming that the presence of oil to the cam is better with 0W20.
Chart below includes the time that it takes for the PD pump to get oil to the rocker arms with a variety of oil grades and temperatures.
As can be seen, the time for the SAE30 at 30F, and the 5W20 at 12F are essentially the same.
The 5W20, or a 0W, are not going to provide any better times at getting oil to the rockers at 50F than the SAE30, the basis of tig1s ongoing claims.
The results are different at the lower extremes of an oil's capabilities, as can be seen.
The SAE30, 10W30, and 5W20 perform about the same at 20F, 9F, and -11F respectively, demonstrating what the "W" means in oil grades.
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
A fair anecdote, for what happens when the galleries are full, but tig1 keeps claiming that the presence of oil to the cam is better with 0W20.
Perhaps not exactly what you were looking for, but a nice comparison of two of the oils at -35C (0W-30 and 10w30)
Here starting at about 5:15 -
A fair anecdote, for what happens when the galleries are full, but tig1 keeps claiming that the presence of oil to the cam is better with 0W20.
Perhaps not exactly what you were looking for, but a nice comparison of two of the oils at -35C (0W-30 and 10w30)
Here starting at about 5:15 -
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Shannow
A fair anecdote, for what happens when the galleries are full, but tig1 keeps claiming that the presence of oil to the cam is better with 0W20.
Perhaps not exactly what you were looking for, but a nice comparison of two of the oils at -35C (0W-30 and 10w30)
Here starting at about 5:15 -
Thanks for sharing. I've seen this before, along with at least one other video that provides the same evidence. Very telling.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
A fair anecdote, for what happens when the galleries are full, but tig1 keeps claiming that the presence of oil to the cam is better with 0W20.
Perhaps not exactly what you were looking for, but a nice comparison of two of the oils at -35C (0W-30 and 10w30)
Here starting at about 5:15 -
Thanks for sharing. I've seen this before, along with at least one other video that provides the same evidence. Very telling.
They are a good couple of videos, and demonstrate clearly the results of choosing the wrong "W" grade for the ambient conditions.
Bump it up 5C (9F), and the 5W will behave like the 0W did at -35C...bring it to 0C, and the 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W will be indiscernible looking at time to flow at the camshaft.
Bump it up 5C (9F), and the 5W will behave like the 0W did at -35C...bring it to 0C, and the 0W, 5W, 10W, 15W will be indiscernible looking at time to flow at the camshaft.
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