Bypass testing end all debate platform is installed!!

Gary Allan · Mar 26, 2005

Okay ..this (hopefully) will be the beginning of the end of the bypass valve debate. We'll miss this point of contention that we've swatted back and forth across the net like a volleyball for as far back as I can remember in the history of the board.

Anyway ..here's some images. With 427ZO6's advice, I got, what was in his opinion, the most restrictive (or fine) media, PURE ONE's in 3 popular sizes: PL3001 (PH8A), PL14670 (PH16), and the dinky PL10241 (ST3614). 427ZO6 also found that a NAPA 1410 (Wix 51410) is a PH16 sized filter without a bypass. This will be installed at some point as well.

I decided to put the dinky one on first ..just so we can get somewhere quicker.

I then plumbed my little gauges into the passenger compartment in an easy to read area.

Sorry for not rotating the image on this one

My first observation??? I've got radical upramp in pressure with hitting the gas pedal...it swings up from the normal 30/32 idle ...all the way up to 80 psi (which I suspect is my pump's relief setting ..or around there - 82 is the highest pressure that I've observed to date).

Here's the "odd" thing (I haven't quite integrated what it means ..but then again ..I haven't dwelled upon it too long either

) .... when I blip the engine ..the DOWNSTREAM PRESSURE responds with more swing. That is, you may be sitting there with any old PSID ...but before the upstream pressure increases ...the downstream comes up to meet it. This may or may not support one of my theories ...I sure hope so

I'll start my log tomorrow. I'll try and record ambient temp. Right now I've got 10w-30 oil in there.

[ March 27, 2005, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

427Z06 · Mar 27, 2005

WOOHOO!!!!! Way to go Gary! That's PHAT!

OK, with a new dinky PL10241 (ST3614), you're getting 4 PSID? Is this on a cold start? You have a ballpark figure for the oil temp?

quote:

when I blip the engine ..the DOWNSTREAM PRESSURE responds with more swing. That is, you may be sitting there with any old PSID ...but before the upstream pressure increases ...the downstream comes up to meet it.

I'm thinking the additional forces causes the clearances the oil has to travel through to tighten up momentarily. What's your theory?

Gary Allan · Mar 27, 2005

This was a "luke warm" start. It wasn't stone cold ..or it should have been right up there @ 80+/- psi. Although it had only been run around the block ..it was less than I expected after a very short amount of time. I'll get more specific in the log.

I have plans to add a temp gauge ...but this was all I could get done this round.

quote:

I'm thinking the additional forces causes the clearances the oil has to travel through to tighten up momentarily. What's your theory?

I agree ..at least I believe so. I think that it supports my theory that everything "works backwards" or rather ..from the "end ..back" so to speak. That is, your downstream pressure "will be what it will be" regardless of your restrictive filtration environment ..as long as the pump's relief isn't reached ..and any added restriction ..will merely raise the upstream pressure. The little "lag" that I see looks like a "wave" of backpressure backing its way up the circuit.

ZR2RANDO · Mar 27, 2005

"but before the upstream pressure increases ...the downstream comes up to meet it."

You said this is when you "blip" the engine? Sounds like the engine is creating more packpressure at that moment than the filter is. I think that makes sense,, the flow is quickly increased and at that moment it looks like the filter has more surge flow capacity than some further point in the engine did...theoretically as it gets dirty it will gradually become a bigger restriction to flow surge and that gauge comparison would become more similar..
At steady state, as the filter gets dirty the steady state psid should gradually increase..

Fantastic! really looking forward to seeing the results...we may be fixing to start new love/hate relationships with some new filters huh?
Looking forward to seeing how this goes- good job!
Rando

Gary Allan · Mar 27, 2005

quote:

we may be fixing to start new love/hate relationships with some new filters huh?

Yes. I have a feeling that although we may end or at least reduce the bypass valve debate ..we may find a few other things to argue about as the data accumulates... our perceptions of flow and pressure may be confirmed, enhanced, or shattered.

It will be interesting where this all leads.

427Z06 · Mar 27, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
The little "lag" that I see looks like a "wave" of backpressure backing its way up the circuit.

Did you switch lines at the gauges to see if it's gauge or plumbing specific?

By the way, nice MacGyvering with the tie straps.

Ugly3 · Mar 27, 2005

Do you have a standard oil pump in the vehicle?

Gary Allan · Mar 27, 2005

quote:

Did you switch lines at the gauges to see if it's gauge or plumbing specific?

No ..but I surely can without difficulty. This would seem to be a wise action to take. It's was very weird seeing down stream pressure lead the upstream pressure during transition. I'm actually hoping it remains this way after the swap. I'll do this tomorrow morning. This only reacts this way during a rapid upramp in rpms and, naturally, flow. I took it on the highway for a few minutes (fully warmed earlier) and found that, with the current oil in the sump, that I'm not peaked in psi until about 70 mph (I don't have a tach) ..about 75/78 seems to be its limit hot.

If this goes out long enough ..and I get in a slightly better cash disposition ..I'll get the digital type gauges to eliminate any of the typical errors that we may see here. So far however, these little gauges appear to be doing a good job.

quote:

Do you have a standard oil pump in the vehicle?

Actually ..I'm surprised that I have a functional oil pump on this Mitsubishi 3.0 with 166k+ miles on it.

Yes, this is whatever Chrysler/Dodge/Mitsubishi issued with the minivan at the date of manufacture. It's one of those crank driven pumps ...I don't even know if a higher volume one is available for it.

..but given the pressures that I see, I don't know if I would seek one out ..as fond as I am for high volume pumps.

ZR2RANDO · Mar 27, 2005

I'd say stick with the analog gauges, easier to do side-by-side comparisons. The behavior you saw sounds typical as well, the backpressure increased from the point that generated it backwards- the gauges picked it up easily. Sounds like you have a good setup and all you need now is for the filter to clog up and start showing any bypass action, (and some backpressure of its own)---that will be the fun part, the clean filter will be boring,,at least it should be. How long will you keep the filter on there?

Too bad winter is waning and the opportunity for cold starts is going away,,thicker oil is a tougher test for sure....what does the dash gauge read in comparison to the filter gauges? I thought that most dash gauges are reading top-of-head pressures..
This is a cool setup!

Al · Mar 27, 2005

Great job Gary..we'll stay tuned

Curious Kid · Mar 27, 2005

Nice job Gary.

I'm not quite certain as to how it would fit together, but I wonder if it would be benificial to add a flow meter to read the amount of oil flow that's actually passing through the filter. Perhaps another could somehow register the flow volume that actually goes through the pump, and to see how this compares with the flow of the oil filter. Just how much oil flow is being bleed off the system by the pressure relief valve?

Does this really have anything to do with the filter's bypass operation? I supose it doesn't, but maybe there's some relavence in the bigger picture of things.

It would be something to be able to take the inner filter canister, and set it up in a modified filter housing that would allow for flow monitoring for the input, and bypass flow. For secondary measuring/measured value varification, one may also choose to monitor the filtered output flow. Anyone have the materials, tools, and energy?

Again, great Job Gary. Sometimes it just comes down to doing something to find out the answer.

TallPaul · Mar 27, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
when I blip the engine ..the DOWNSTREAM PRESSURE responds with more swing.

My initial thought also was that the pressure spike starts at the far end of the system where the increased flow first piles up.

quote:

Originally posted by ZR2RANDO:
Too bad winter is waning and the opportunity for cold starts is going away...

I suppose he could pack dry ice around the oil pan.

Bugshu · Mar 27, 2005

Gary - YOU RULE !!!!!!

Happy Motoring to You,

Bugshu

T-Keith · Mar 27, 2005

I'm still not getting it, what are you trying to measure? The difference will never exceed the bypass setting.

TallPaul · Mar 27, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by T-Keith:
I'm still not getting it, what are you trying to measure? The difference will never exceed the bypass setting.

I think one of the main things is to determine the frequency of bypass operation under varying conditions, including different sized filters, different brands, element types (possible e-core element test?), new vs well used possibly to overused, throttle spikes, perhaps even oil types (straight 30 vs 5w30 maybe). Whatever he does it will be very interesting.

Thanks Gary for putting this all together.

Gary Allan · Mar 27, 2005

I just caught this one ....

quote:

By the way, nice MacGyvering with the tie straps.

Nothing but the finest in "yankee-rigging"

quote:

I suppose he could pack dry ice around the oil pan.

I could always put 15w-40 in the freezer over night and pour the motor honey in right after draining the sump.

I swapped the lines around ..and the effect is the same. It appears that this effect is not unlike slamming a valve closed on a garden hose (pistol type) ..you hear the shockwave trying to expand the hose going up the line ...except in reverse ..you're slamming a flow against too small a conduit. Sorta like a traffic jam. The stuff will travel down the line until it starts playing bumber cars with the stuff in front of it ..sending the "bump" upstream. Since there's no "compression" per se` ..it's expressed in waves of elavated pressure. Interesting.

Thanks to all for the kind words!!

Gosh I feel so "useful" (visions of my wife saying "please move like you have a purpose!!")

Any suggestions for log notations??

I'm currently going to record mileage/ambient temp, startup PSI/PSID ..and warm PSI/PSID ..both at idle and speed. I'll just have to note what pressures are observed at highway speeds and index them for the speed in which they were observed since this engine has such a broad range in warm oil pressure.

novadude · Mar 28, 2005

Good Stuff, Gary!

Gary Allan · Mar 28, 2005

quote:

Gary, any idea what the cost would be for the digital gauges?

Also, since you will be working in very small relative PSId values, do you know what the relative tolerance is for these gauges?

The cheapest digitals that I've run across are about $50 each w/senders. They, naturally, go up from there.

I don't know the accuracy of these gauges ..but they read the same when switched so they are "matched". If I can find one, I'll tap in a 0-100 silicon filled gauge at the mount to see if I get like readings. I should have one 3" sitting around somewhere. If they all match ..I think that we can feel somewhat assured that there is a decent level of accuracy.

FWIW- all observed PSID indications appear to be about 3.5 ..or between 3 and 4 PSID. The only exception to this is at idle immediately off of a highway run. I really do need to put that temp gauge in the mix here. My normal (coolant warm) idle pressure is about 34/30 - 28/24 ..but it may drop to about 23/19 in around town idle ..but right at the end of the off ramp after a lengthy 65-70 mph run ..it's as low as 10/12

. This about the only time I see a 2 PSID diff with this filter. Otherwise it appears to stay at this level of differential, aside from surges, throughout the full range of engine speeds.

T-Keith · Mar 28, 2005

How are you determining if the bypass is opening or not? It's a great idea, but if you don't know if the bypass is opening, then what are you trying to determine.

-T

Drew99GT · Mar 28, 2005

Nice work Gary! Is this the official start of your filter test that is the talk of the board? Or did I miss previous posts? Anyway, with regards to the spike you see when you blip the throttle: are you saying that the little jump in pressure on the downstream guage is not from the filter restriction, but from the bearings/galleys etc creating resistance to the sudden surge in flow? The real test I think will come with the filter that is bypassless. If that one shows a definate spike in pressure on the inlet side, then it means these bypass valves work a lot! Love the test Gary

What do passengers think of this nigerian engineering?

Bypass testing end all debate platform is installed!!

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