BYD may come to the US via Mexico

The textbook definition is that there is a level playing field - everyone is subject to the same set of laws, and same set of guidelines, same tax code, and has the right to pursue success just like everyone else.

If they don't - then its not capitalism. Its maybe crony capitalism - which is what we have.
There is no such thing. Never was. Call it crony capitalism or to coin a more current economic term, Turbo Capitalism.
Here's a point-of-view from Forbes.

A couple of things you may wish to comment on; I can come up with many more:
  • Corporate trial lawyers - good or bad? Follow laws and guidelines or beat them?
  • Fair trade - let the market decide or corporate leverage to impoverish workers and make them capitulate to management demands?
  • Deregulation - freedom to build and sell or a rush to the bottom?
All of these questions are pertinent to a Capitalist/Socialist economy. It is very complicated and is always in a state of flux.
I appreciate your thoughts; you know a lot. Maybe @UncleDave can chime in; I would be interested in his thoughts.

Winners and losers...
 
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Or do what Germany does, its merit based unless you have tons of money.

Germany does not babysit the mentally disabled in schools, that alone pays for the trade schools and college they give away because a large number of kids effectively don’t get much of any schooling from the state. (They use flowery language but in effect lots of things could cut your education short in Germany)

in our country we would view what they do as very harsh but pretty much you have to be competent enough to continue your education there and you get pigeonholed based on your 6/7/8th grade aptitude’s into a this or that option as you go along.

We had a German foreign exchange student at our church, she was able to finagle herself into our tech for welding (which actually is considered a very good program worldwide apparently) as her “college/trade” background she was persuing was actually one of the options the state would fund given her school performance/aptitudes.

There are women welders in the US but Germany is fairly good at judging what you could be good at along with societal needs and heavily nudges you in that direction. (Aka more women welders per capita there)
If you want the proverbial psych/liberal arts degree in Germany unless you have clear ability your on your own to pay for everything.

California oddly enough had a teacher shortage long long ago and made college virtually free if you agreed to be trained as an elementary school teacher, Reagan got rid of that program but… said program would help solve our teacher shortage, just add a give us 10+ years in elementary and it’s free and I bet we could chip away at some current issues.

Germanys pig and a poke method helps grease the wheels to ensure you get the degrees in your society that you need.
Not perfect, sort of unfair and leaves lots of folks behind but what system isn’t doing that to some degree ?



The reality is that many things have gotten offshored because of a couple percentage points.

The company might save 5% but then food stamps and welfare spending skyrockets, pay me now or pay me later, off shoring usually doesn’t come up net positive if it includes the failure in the commons along with subsided shipping in the costs.

The easiest way to stop off shoring is to quit subsidizing freight, via loophole China gets billions of dollars of free shipping in certain circumstances due to a broken reciprocity agreement.

Doing so would be extremely painful but business supposedly optimizes cost, if they had to actually pay for their bad decisions in shipping a lot of what we see would end.
The German system is the most correct IMO. Kids with the intelligence of a pet rock and near imbeciles have no business going to college.
Unfortunately it seems the US colleges have a large percentage of these kids.
I have to clarify this. I do not mean there are no good students or educational opportunity in the US it is just so many high school students don't even have to pass basic exams anymore but yet they want to go to college and feel entitled, then they complain about having to pay the loan back.
 
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There is no such thing. Never was. Call it crony capitalism or to coin a more current economic term, Turbo Capitalism.
Here's a point-of-view from Forbes.

A couple of things you may wish to comment on; I can come up with many more:
  • Corporate trial lawyers - good or bad? Follow laws and guidelines or beat them?
  • Fair trade - let the market decide or corporate leverage to impoverish workers and make them capitulate to management demands?
  • Deregulation - freedom to build and sell or a rush to the bottom?
All of these questions are pertinent to a Capitalist/Socialist economy. It is very complicated and is always in a state of flux.
I appreciate your thoughts; you know a lot. Maybe @UncleDave can chime in; I would be interested in his thoughts.

Winners and losers...
Capitalism is not a free for all, nor does it have to be a pure system, so I am not sure what your saying. If the rules apply equally then people can compete fairly. The government may decide they want a road, and the public will own the road. But they won’t build the road, capitalist contractors will compete to build it, hopefully for a profit, and other capitalists will use it as well. Capitalists will build gas stations and charging stations along it to profit. The capitalist winners and losers you mention win or lose on their own volition, not someone else's decision.

Our military is communist. They can draft you if needed. Ponder that for a while.

Compared to non capitalist, where if your even allowed to start a business, you must first go ask permission of the politburo, who will decide if they want you competing with their friend, and if they do say yes they will decide how much of it they own and you own.
 
The German system is the most correct IMO. Kids with the intelligence of a pet rock and near imbeciles have no business going to college.
Unfortunately it seems the US colleges have a large percentage of these kids.
I have to clarify this. I do not mean there are no good students or educational opportunity in the US it is just so many high school students don't even have to pass basic exams anymore but yet they want to go to college and feel entitled, then they complain about having to pay the loan back.
Amazing isn't it? Here's a simple fix, you borrow money you pay it back. Don't pay it back there will be consequences unfortunately.
 
For quite a few years now I've argued with people regarding off-shoring manufacturing.

The free-trade advocates say that moving manufacturing to the most-efficient (i.e. cheapest) production areas (typically China) results in the greatest efficiency and therefore the greatest net good.

My counter-argument is that that argument falls apart when it's your job that gets offshored. Now the product you helped manufacture is cheaper, but you can't afford it anyway because you're out of work.

If not your job, it could be your spouse's, your children's, your friend's, or your neighbour's job. Regardless, someone will lose a job, and you, if working, will get to pay the social costs of their unemployment. All of a sudden, that cheap product at Walmart doesn't look like such a bargain.

Some years ago, a high-profile American politician said (I paraphrase) "Our people in California design the I-phones, and then the phones are manufactured in China, and thus each part of the global village does what it does best, leading to the greatest overall prosperity".

So how many designers does Apple employ in California vs. manufacturing personnel in China? I bet it's NOT a 1:1 ratio. 1:10? 1:100? Worse?

And what would this politician have said if her job were to "outsourced" to China? It's easy to farm out the jobs of the "deplorables", harder when your own job disappears.

Besides that, the promised cheaper prices often don't happen - it's simply more profit for the company.

And regarding those who say "Those jobs are gone. They're not coming back. It's all done by robots anyway!", I reply "If it's all done by robots, why is it cheaper to manufacture in China?"

I'd better quit ranting, but do feel strongly that the 1st World needs to bring back its manufacturing.
My question is what is your solution?
Ban the American people from buying products overseas and forcing them to buy what would become cheap expensive unreliable American made products?
Im not knocking USA products, I am stating what happened many decades back in a place called the USSR. The country collapsed.
Once a company competition is extremely limited quality goes down and profits go up. A closed society is not an answer. Competing on the world stage works better for the population.

I am not an advocate of trade with China, in fact against it. We buy their products and they use the money to build up their war machine. They are catching up quick. Yet many USA jobs and income come from doing business there. Anyway, it is against our best interest doing business with them, yet if we dont, the rest of the world still will and USA companies will struggle to compete.

The whole rest of the world is out there, tell Americans we cant buy from them? China's economy I believe is currently in contraction because of the now offshoring of businesses there.

BTW Apple doesnt build iPhones. They contract them from a company who custom builds their devices. Foxconn is a Taiwanese company. However they were forced to go to a Chinese company after worker unrest there with is Foxconns rival Luxshare as another source.
Anyway, companies are slowly moving offshore China, China trying to stop it. Ironically for example Apple Watch is made in Vietnam.

This isnt just about Apple, it's what companies need to do to survive and prosper. The biggest name in chip making right now and largest capitalization in the world is NVIDIA a USA company whose chips are made in Taiwan which is a republic of China. NVIDIA overtook Tesla for that crown. While on the subject, the only reason Tesla showed profits like they have in the last three years are their Chinese plants. Before that they never made money in the history of the company.

This is the price of freedom, it works best rather than being dictated too. The job market here in the USA is so strong companies struggle to hire.

BTW- When things go south what do you tell these people when you outlaw USA companies manufacturing overseas? Do you then ban overseas companies from selling their cheaper better products here?
https://www.apple.com/job-creation/

BTW- the largest USA company in the world by capitalization is NVIDIA. One of the most important developers of AI chips. TO we force them to bring manufacturing home to the USA and let some other company grab the world stage from them?
They employ less than 30,000 Americans at least Apple has 154,000. But this isnt a contest. If we dont compete on the world stage our country will be overcome and less advanced by other countries.

BTW - Im sure you agree exporting products are a bonus to American labor? Correct? What will happen if we cant do that anymore once we ban our companies doing business overseas?
The largest exporter of American made cars in the USA is not an American company but is a foreign company. BMW, in fact BMWs largest auto manufacturing plant in the world is here in the USA, Last numbers I knew from US Dept of Commerce was in 2021 (during and right after coved no less, exported 10 billion dollars worth of cars. They have now held that crown for 9 years in a row.

Anyway, world dynamics is a complicated thing and free trade has to rule. AS long as it is fair.
 
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But this isnt a contest. If we dont compete on the world stage our country will be overcome and less advanced by other countries.
I'm not sure that's entirely true. After the 2nd world war and the Cold War started with the Soviets, there was a huge drive for innovation. You had all of this industrial might amassed and expertise and this led to the SR-71 Blackbird, Enterprise, the IBM PC, DIGITAL, HP, Motorola, Intel, AMD, AT&T Unix, Apple...etc. The Cold War very much fostered domestic innovation and collaboration was discouraged due to the potential for espionage. None of this was as a result of outsourcing to increase profits by making manufacturing cheaper. Household appliances and electronics were also generally repairable, and thus repaired, we had not yet turned the corner on the shift to a disposable society.

Of course the flip side of that was the US auto industry lacked competition and, without targets for innovation and quality like in the military space, what the consumer was presented with was potentially sub-par, particularly in the small car space. This was exasperated by the oil crisis and emissions standards, which allowed the Japanese marques to gain a foothold, which was ultimately good for everyone. But the Japanese weren't demanding American companies setup shop there so they could steal their IP; the situation with Japan, which is a first world nation, is different than with China, which isn't.
Anyway, world dynamics is a complicated thing and free trade has to rule. AS long as it is fair.
Trade dynamics between first world nations, as @JHZR2 and I have discussed in the past, are pretty straightforward. They all have similar costs of living and associated expenses, so everybody is "playing in the same park" so to speak. It's when you introduce slave labour, the absence of human rights and environmental regulations that you create this imbalance.

Having a mechanism that works to discourage exploitation of this situation, such as the tariffs the EU places on things like steel, is common sense in this scenario. Fair compensation and safe conditions are what unions and labour rights activists fought for during the industrial revolution, and this is ultimately where the moral compass should drive you. It is our responsibility to ensure this for the manufacture of the products we consume, not encourage the exploitation of the disadvantaged and ethnic minorities in slave camps so that we can get that solar panel a little bit cheaper. That we will signal virtuously about how we are "saving the environment" after supporting this abhorrent treatment of our fellow man really underscores how disconnected we are from our own past and how the conditions we have were fought for.
 
There is no such thing. Never was. Call it crony capitalism or to coin a more current economic term, Turbo Capitalism.
Here's a point-of-view from Forbes.

A couple of things you may wish to comment on; I can come up with many more:
  • Corporate trial lawyers - good or bad? Follow laws and guidelines or beat them?
  • Fair trade - let the market decide or corporate leverage to impoverish workers and make them capitulate to management demands?
  • Deregulation - freedom to build and sell or a rush to the bottom?
All of these questions are pertinent to a Capitalist/Socialist economy. It is very complicated and is always in a state of flux.
I appreciate your thoughts; you know a lot. Maybe @UncleDave can chime in; I would be interested in his thoughts.

Winners and losers...


Interesting article and you bring up excellent points to consider.

The playing field never was, and is not even remotely "level".

As you say, business exists today as a blend of Capitalism and Socialism.

In trying to legislate both equal opportunity and equal outcome the state/feds have intruded negatively into both.

That said we live in country with nearly limitless opportunity, even a podunk from Pekin such as myself can become successful.
 
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@OVERKILL
I read your post, I dont necessarily disagree with you. No one is more American than I am. With that said. I threw in the towel and give up with the arguments. Only after the rest of the people wake up, if ever will things change.
Starting to doubt they ever will until a war. Actually I am sure of it.

I did my job, educated the next generation (my kids) the best I can, for the most part I did a good job, though my highly educated daughter is a little more iffy because of being partly indoctrinated into the agenda at college she has at least learned to question everything and is by no means like most her age.

So except maybe in here, I stay quiet and I vote. I am glad to have grown up and lived the life I have. Im glad I am not younger. I have no faith for the future/ (I sent you a message on the rest even though I think it ok, it might sound political. Oops never mind it wont let me. So I'll say it here, look at the age of the leaders we choose to run the most powerful nation on earth.
 
That said we live in country with nearly limitless opportunity, even a podunk from Pekin such as myself can become successful.
I personally know a drunk who got his 1st degree at 40, but with the promise of low cost CA quality education and Silicon Valley opportunity, has ended up OK.
Life long education is good for the individual and society as a whole.
 
China has been importing cars to Mexico for some time so this isnt really news. Frankly I welcome the competition, especially any news that makes Elon Musk sweat in whatever couch he sleeps on each night.
 
The German system is the most correct IMO. Kids with the intelligence of a pet rock and near imbeciles have no business going to college.
Unfortunately it seems the US colleges have a large percentage of these kids.
I have to clarify this. I do not mean there are no good students or educational opportunity in the US it is just so many high school students don't even have to pass basic exams anymore but yet they want to go to college and feel entitled, then they complain about having to pay the loan back.
I think the problem is that the assumption in the US is that college is required. Once that has been decided it becomes more of a chore and some are doing it because they're told they have to, not because they want to. That's a waste of money and effort. There are labor intensive jobs that will pay well without college and for someone with aspirations to make a lot of money, but not cut out for college this is the solution.
 
I think the problem is that the assumption in the US is that college is required. Once that has been decided it becomes more of a chore and some are doing it because they're told they have to, not because they want to. That's a waste of money and effort. There are labor intensive jobs that will pay well without college and for someone with aspirations to make a lot of money, but not cut out for college this is the solution.
Education provides a better life for the individual and society as a whole. Education teaches you to think. It is not necessarily about a job. My pet peeve is personal finance; most struggle. In today's world, K-12 is not enough. By the way, advanced education can be delivered very inexpensively via the Internet. I taught myself R and Python for free. If someone were so inclined and willing to work, they could gain many many skills and prosper from their efforts.

Look at how Silicon Valley leads the world to new computer science and technology. AI is a critical component going forward.
Yesterday's good enough is not good enough.
Otherwise China wins.
Life begins at the end of your comfort zone.
 
Education provides a better life for the individual and society as a whole. Education teaches you to think. It is not necessarily about a job. My pet peeve is personal finance; most struggle. In today's world, K-12 is not enough. By the way, advanced education can be delivered very inexpensively via the Internet. I taught myself R and Python for free. If someone were so inclined and willing to work, they could gain many many skills and prosper from their efforts.

Look at how Silicon Valley leads the world to new computer science and technology. AI is a critical component going forward.
Yesterday's good enough is not good enough.
Otherwise China wins.
Life begins at the end of your comfort zone.

You have to be specific when talking about "education". Not all education leads to personal and professional growth.
Today's education is full of dead ends.
People and especially young people, need to be educated about their education choices.

But overall I totally agree, proper education does lead to better outcomes in general.
 
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You have to be specific when talking about "education". Not all education leads to personal and professional growth.
Today's education is full of dead ends.
People and especially young people, need to be educated about their education choices.

But overall I totally agree, proper education does lead to better outcomes in general.
Certainly. Direction is only everything.
 
Interesting to read that commie run corporations are a “welcome competition”.
Yes welcome them with open arms. Not too long and we will be calling each other comrades😳

If every Chinese corporation is considered Communist run does that mean every American corporation is Republican/Democrat run?

People in China also don't call each other comrades. At least not the way you might think. Comrade (tongzhi) is used as a slang for a homosexual.
 
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Education provides a better life for the individual and society as a whole. Education teaches you to think. It is not necessarily about a job. My pet peeve is personal finance; most struggle. In today's world, K-12 is not enough. By the way, advanced education can be delivered very inexpensively via the Internet. I taught myself R and Python for free. If someone were so inclined and willing to work, they could gain many many skills and prosper from their efforts.

Look at how Silicon Valley leads the world to new computer science and technology. AI is a critical component going forward.
Yesterday's good enough is not good enough.
Otherwise China wins.
Life begins at the end of your comfort zone.
I don't disagree. I just think it's not a path forward for every person. I want everyone who wants further education to get it, I just don't want it to be compulsory for those who won't benefit from it. I had further education for my last career, but instead of going into further education after that dried up I went to the railroad. I did give up a normal schedule and made a couple of other sacrifices for the largest amount of money I've ever made and I technically could have done this straight out of high school. I'm not sure completing high school would have been a requirement to be honest.

If every Chinese corporation is considered Communist run does that mean every American corporation is Republican/Democrat run?

People in China also don't call each other comrades. At least not the way you might think. Comrade (tongzhi) is used as a slang for a homosexual.
Doing otherwise won't further the narrative. Demonize anything Chinese ignoring the fact that their population are people too and have differing opinions and beliefs than one another just like we do. There's not really an end to bigoted comments on the internet, this site included.
 
One of the things people who lament American manufacturing decline and blame China/corporate America forget is that post WWII the US was in a very favorable position which was not going to last.

The US won the war, however the war was not fought on American soil so American industrial capacity was left intact.

By contrast Japan and Germany lost and were destroyed. It took decades to recover, but once they recovered, guess what? The Germans and Japanese built pretty good cars as well.

The USSR and China won the war but since the war was fought on Soviet and Chinese soil and their economies languished under communism, they could not challenge the economy of the US.

European Great powers like Britain and France were undergoing a process of de-colonialization, so they were losing wealth they would normally have through colonial exploitation.

The world has simply gotten a lot more competitive since the 50's, 60's, 70's. In my opinion some decline was inevitable.
 
One of the things people who lament American manufacturing decline and blame China/corporate America forget is that post WWII the US was in a very favorable position which was not going to last.

The US won the war, however the war was not fought on American soil so American industrial capacity was left intact.

By contrast Japan and Germany lost and were destroyed. It took decades to recover, but once they recovered, guess what? The Germans and Japanese built pretty good cars as well.

The USSR and China won the war but since the war was fought on Soviet and Chinese soil and their economies languished under communism, they could not challenge the economy of the US.

European Great powers like Britain and France were undergoing a process of de-colonialization, so they were losing wealth they would normally have through colonial exploitation.

The world has simply gotten a lot more competitive since the 50's, 60's, 70's. In my opinion some decline was inevitable.
The problem was started in the 1950's but was accelerated by the 80's deregulation and union decline that led to outsourcing.
 
Happy to have BYD show up here - The key to every relationship is reciprocity.

They should
1. Build and hire Inside the 50 states not Mexico. (just like our companies in China)
2. Transfer / Turn over all software and manufacturing knowledge to us (just like with our companies in China)
3. They become subject to the UAW. (just like we are subject to their labor laws when in China)

Aside from that. Go to town.

Let's see what you really have in terms of product, reliability, and support.
 
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