I drove several DCT M cars when I worked at BMW; in those cars I much prefer the manual gearbox. In fact, I would take an M240i with the M Performance differential over an M2 DCT- especially if I wasn't going to track it more than 2-3 times per year.
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
BMW currently makes one model well-suited for a manual transmission, the 2er. The rest of the line up is too soft, too muted, too large. I think the ZF8 is perfect for the cars BMW presently makes. All the way up to the E90 generation they were perfect with a manual, and once the F30 was released the manual transmission stopped making sense.
As an aside, my friends in Germany always made fun of my 750i because it didn't have a manual transmission. I made fun of them because they were missing half their engine.
I thought that for the biggest sedans in Germany, automatics really, really prevail. I think the German car buying public is changing. Also, with Porsche's, I think they big-time go for PDK's... and these days rarely go for the 7 speed (in the 911) or the 6 speeds in many of the other Porsche's.
In the US especially, I think there is a stalwart contingent that embrace manual transmissions.
The reason why biggest sedans prevail as automatics in Germany is that:
1. They are mostly diesels.
2. That means ridiculous torque, which manual is not suited for.
However, European market is mostly below 2.0ltr market, and that is where manuals still prevail, even among diesels.
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
BMW currently makes one model well-suited for a manual transmission, the 2er. The rest of the line up is too soft, too muted, too large. I think the ZF8 is perfect for the cars BMW presently makes. All the way up to the E90 generation they were perfect with a manual, and once the F30 was released the manual transmission stopped making sense.
As an aside, my friends in Germany always made fun of my 750i because it didn't have a manual transmission. I made fun of them because they were missing half their engine.
I thought that for the biggest sedans in Germany, automatics really, really prevail. I think the German car buying public is changing. Also, with Porsche's, I think they big-time go for PDK's... and these days rarely go for the 7 speed (in the 911) or the 6 speeds in many of the other Porsche's.
In the US especially, I think there is a stalwart contingent that embrace manual transmissions.
The reason why biggest sedans prevail as automatics in Germany is that:
1. They are mostly diesels.
2. That means ridiculous torque, which manual is not suited for.
However, European market is mostly below 2.0ltr market, and that is where manuals still prevail, even among diesels.
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Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Originally Posted by MCompact
Up until my M235i, every one of "my" BMW s has had three pedals. The thing is, on the track the ZF 8HP shifts exactly the same way I would 99% of the time. I still like a manual behind engines that make maximum torque at high rpm(such as the M42 in my Club Sport), but with the N55 in the 2er peak torque is made from virtually off idle so I'm good with letting the 8HP do the heavy lifting. Still, If I ever get an M2C it will have three pedals(and no hole in the roof).
The ZF 8HP is a brilliant automatic... and I think BMW themselves seem to indicate that the conventional torque converter automatic will soon enough be the go-to performance transmission over the DCT. For one, the 8AT trans can take more torque, I believe. What's more - and this is something I will never understand - a DCT or a PDK or a DSG - i.e. a dual-clutch automated manual - is really, really easy on the synchro's - UPSHIFTING - but super, super hard on the synchro's when a "downshift artist" starts flipping the down-paddle at high road-speed. Dual clutch automated manuals do NOT double-declutch... and so they totally, totally rely on the synchro's - and they are brutal in engaging the speed-gears, by way of making those synchro's work hard! Not brutal in engaging the driveline... but brutal on the speed-gears (if you know what I mean). I guess in retrospect I do understand that people want to flip the paddles... and that they do NOT have a sense of "mechanical sympathy" for the car 'cause they do not really understand what is happening internally. Oh, to finally add this: a conventional performance automatic IS quicker than a dual-clutch automated manual - in Downshifting... at all times. If a DCT has to downshift, say, 2 gears... then it takes 'way longer. The way a conventional automatic downshifts - is pure poetry, in terms of the feel. "The car gets a new set of legs - and it MOTORS!"
Finally, I totally agree with you that the character of the car and the character of the drive-train (i.e. "cammy" versus not) really, really plays a role in whether the car is suited to a manual versus an automatic.
I had both DSG and numerous automatics from ZF and Aisin, and what you saying is far from truth, especially when it comes to Aisin automatics.
ZF8 is close to DCT, DSG or PDK, but CLOSE, not same or faster (i do not want to say better). Also, it depends who programs transmission. ZF8 works in BMW far better than in FCA vehicles etc.
Originally Posted by MCompact
Up until my M235i, every one of "my" BMW s has had three pedals. The thing is, on the track the ZF 8HP shifts exactly the same way I would 99% of the time. I still like a manual behind engines that make maximum torque at high rpm(such as the M42 in my Club Sport), but with the N55 in the 2er peak torque is made from virtually off idle so I'm good with letting the 8HP do the heavy lifting. Still, If I ever get an M2C it will have three pedals(and no hole in the roof).
The ZF 8HP is a brilliant automatic... and I think BMW themselves seem to indicate that the conventional torque converter automatic will soon enough be the go-to performance transmission over the DCT. For one, the 8AT trans can take more torque, I believe. What's more - and this is something I will never understand - a DCT or a PDK or a DSG - i.e. a dual-clutch automated manual - is really, really easy on the synchro's - UPSHIFTING - but super, super hard on the synchro's when a "downshift artist" starts flipping the down-paddle at high road-speed. Dual clutch automated manuals do NOT double-declutch... and so they totally, totally rely on the synchro's - and they are brutal in engaging the speed-gears, by way of making those synchro's work hard! Not brutal in engaging the driveline... but brutal on the speed-gears (if you know what I mean). I guess in retrospect I do understand that people want to flip the paddles... and that they do NOT have a sense of "mechanical sympathy" for the car 'cause they do not really understand what is happening internally. Oh, to finally add this: a conventional performance automatic IS quicker than a dual-clutch automated manual - in Downshifting... at all times. If a DCT has to downshift, say, 2 gears... then it takes 'way longer. The way a conventional automatic downshifts - is pure poetry, in terms of the feel. "The car gets a new set of legs - and it MOTORS!"
Finally, I totally agree with you that the character of the car and the character of the drive-train (i.e. "cammy" versus not) really, really plays a role in whether the car is suited to a manual versus an automatic.
I had both DSG and numerous automatics from ZF and Aisin, and what you saying is far from truth, especially when it comes to Aisin automatics.
ZF8 is close to DCT, DSG or PDK, but CLOSE, not same or faster (i do not want to say better). Also, it depends who programs transmission. ZF8 works in BMW far better than in FCA vehicles etc.
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
You mean for the 2% or less of the people that actually bought them? Can't make all the people happy all the time. I drove a manual for years. Don't miss it one bit. One of those things that times have passed by like 8 track tapes, cassette tapes, cd players etc. Get used to 7-9 speed auto transmissions, CVTs and I don't think you even need a transmission in an electric car.
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
You mean for the 2% or less of the people that actually bought them? Can't make all the people happy all the time. I drove a manual for years. Don't miss it one bit. One of those things that times have passed by like 8 track tapes, cassette tapes, cd players etc. Get used to 7-9 speed auto transmissions, CVTs and I don't think you even need a transmission in an electric car.
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
You mean for the 2% or less of the people that actually bought them? Can't make all the people happy all the time. I drove a manual for years. Don't miss it one bit. One of those things that times have passed by like 8 track tapes, cassette tapes, cd players etc. Get used to 7-9 speed auto transmissions, CVTs and I don't think you even need a transmission in an electric car.
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
You absolutely can have whatever you want.
But to think the manufacturer should support the 2% is rather absurd, especially when the automatic is objectively better in every way. If driving an automatic is really that egregious an assault on a facet of your personality, then swap one in.
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
You mean for the 2% or less of the people that actually bought them? Can't make all the people happy all the time. I drove a manual for years. Don't miss it one bit. One of those things that times have passed by like 8 track tapes, cassette tapes, cd players etc. Get used to 7-9 speed auto transmissions, CVTs and I don't think you even need a transmission in an electric car.
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
You absolutely can have whatever you want.
But to think the manufacturer should support the 2% is rather absurd, especially when the automatic is objectively better in every way. If driving an automatic is really that egregious an assault on a facet of your personality, then swap one in.
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Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
You mean for the 2% or less of the people that actually bought them? Can't make all the people happy all the time. I drove a manual for years. Don't miss it one bit. One of those things that times have passed by like 8 track tapes, cassette tapes, cd players etc. Get used to 7-9 speed auto transmissions, CVTs and I don't think you even need a transmission in an electric car.
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
Yeah, but automotive companies are not welfare institutions. They are here to make money. If there was a demand for BMW's sold in Europe with smaller engines, probably you could get manual. But you live in a country where gasoline has constitutional rights, so today, 250-300hp is considered normal, and 6sec to 60 is considered slow. Besides the fact that automatics deliver better mpg and performance, many of these engines would require expensive manual transmission to handle that torque. For what? 2% of customers?
My advice is to get some good used BMW 3 series with manual and keep it for as long as its rolls. I am planing to get something soon, E90, stick, and I am starting to think N52 engine as in 10 years, naturally aspirated inline 6 might be actually worth some real money
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
You mean for the 2% or less of the people that actually bought them? Can't make all the people happy all the time. I drove a manual for years. Don't miss it one bit. One of those things that times have passed by like 8 track tapes, cassette tapes, cd players etc. Get used to 7-9 speed auto transmissions, CVTs and I don't think you even need a transmission in an electric car.
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
Yeah, but automotive companies are not welfare institutions. They are here to make money. If there was a demand for BMW's sold in Europe with smaller engines, probably you could get manual. But you live in a country where gasoline has constitutional rights, so today, 250-300hp is considered normal, and 6sec to 60 is considered slow. Besides the fact that automatics deliver better mpg and performance, many of these engines would require expensive manual transmission to handle that torque. For what? 2% of customers?
My advice is to get some good used BMW 3 series with manual and keep it for as long as its rolls. I am planing to get something soon, E90, stick, and I am starting to think N52 engine as in 10 years, naturally aspirated inline 6 might be actually worth some real money
Edy watch the N52 - more and more are needing rod bearings as they age.
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
You mean for the 2% or less of the people that actually bought them? Can't make all the people happy all the time. I drove a manual for years. Don't miss it one bit. One of those things that times have passed by like 8 track tapes, cassette tapes, cd players etc. Get used to 7-9 speed auto transmissions, CVTs and I don't think you even need a transmission in an electric car.
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
You absolutely can have whatever you want.
But to think the manufacturer should support the 2% is rather absurd, especially when the automatic is objectively better in every way. If driving an automatic is really that egregious an assault on a facet of your personality, then swap one in.
You're aware that things called niche markets exist, correct? People have been screeching for the last 20 years that mAnUaLs ArE dEaD MoVe On!!!! yet they're still being made and sold. You slushboxers love to point out the 2% statistic when literally everyone already knows it, so why keep parroting it?
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by wag123
IMO it will be a very sad day in the automotive world when BMW drops manual transmissions
You mean for the 2% or less of the people that actually bought them? Can't make all the people happy all the time. I drove a manual for years. Don't miss it one bit. One of those things that times have passed by like 8 track tapes, cassette tapes, cd players etc. Get used to 7-9 speed auto transmissions, CVTs and I don't think you even need a transmission in an electric car.
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
You absolutely can have whatever you want.
But to think the manufacturer should support the 2% is rather absurd, especially when the automatic is objectively better in every way. If driving an automatic is really that egregious an assault on a facet of your personality, then swap one in.
You're aware that things called niche markets exist, correct? People have been screeching for the last 20 years that mAnUaLs ArE dEaD MoVe On!!!! yet they're still being made and sold. You slushboxers love to point out the 2% statistic when literally everyone already knows it, so why keep parroting it?
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Wolf359 said:
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Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Edy watch the N52 - more and more are needing rod bearings as they age.
Did not catch that. Did you catch approx. what is mileage and is there any suggestion what could be cause?
Edy watch the N52 - more and more are needing rod bearings as they age.
Did not catch that. Did you catch approx. what is mileage and is there any suggestion what could be cause?
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$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Wolf359 said:
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Edy watch the N52 - more and more are needing rod bearings as they age.
Did not catch that. Did you catch approx. what is mileage and is there any suggestion what could be cause?
The 128i and 330i seem to be the most common, as they are generally beat on, especially as they get cheaper. It seems to be a combination of mileage and general wear combined with aggressive driving.
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
You absolutely can have whatever you want.
But to think the manufacturer should support the 2% is rather absurd, especially when the automatic is objectively better in every way. If driving an automatic is really that egregious an assault on a facet of your personality, then swap one in.
You're aware that things called niche markets exist, correct? People have been screeching for the last 20 years that mAnUaLs ArE dEaD MoVe On!!!! yet they're still being made and sold. You slushboxers love to point out the 2% statistic when literally everyone already knows it, so why keep parroting it?
I daily drove a 911 manual for the last two years and I've owned a number of manual-equipped vehicles; I'm no "slushboxer."
I'm aware that niche markets exist. I'm also aware that manufacturers are under no obligation to fill the niche if it isn't profitable. As shown with the latest Supra, people that are truly "manual or die" will build their own. Others will buy what is available.
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
You clearly don't know what "objective" means. Manuals are objectively better in these areas:
1. Cheaper initially
2. Cheaper to repair (clutch vs. transmission replacement)
3. Less likely to be stolen because 83% of US population can't drive them
How again is an automatic better in every way?
Don't tell me what I do or do not know. You come off as an [censored].
1. In some case. It depends on the specific car.
2. Sure. Assuming that the automatic ever needs replaced. With care many models have been shown to last indefinitely.
3. Is this a concern of yours when you buy a new car? If it is a crime of opportunity maybe, but if it is targeted and someone wants to steal your car, they're going to get it no matter the transmission type.
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Edy watch the N52 - more and more are needing rod bearings as they age.
Did not catch that. Did you catch approx. what is mileage and is there any suggestion what could be cause?
The 128i and 330i seem to be the most common, as they are generally beat on, especially as they get cheaper. It seems to be a combination of mileage and general wear combined with aggressive driving.
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
Dumbest argument in the automotive world: It's not popular so you shouldn't like it!
Cars are expensive, we should get what we want. You like to push a pedal on your appliance, others actually find joy in controlling their machine.
You absolutely can have whatever you want.
But to think the manufacturer should support the 2% is rather absurd, especially when the automatic is objectively better in every way. If driving an automatic is really that egregious an assault on a facet of your personality, then swap one in.
You're aware that things called niche markets exist, correct? People have been screeching for the last 20 years that mAnUaLs ArE dEaD MoVe On!!!! yet they're still being made and sold. You slushboxers love to point out the 2% statistic when literally everyone already knows it, so why keep parroting it?
I daily drove a 911 manual for the last two years and I've owned a number of manual-equipped vehicles; I'm no "slushboxer."
I'm aware that niche markets exist. I'm also aware that manufacturers are under no obligation to fill the niche if it isn't profitable. As shown with the latest Supra, people that are truly "manual or die" will build their own. Others will buy what is available.
Originally Posted by IronMaidenRules
You clearly don't know what "objective" means. Manuals are objectively better in these areas:
1. Cheaper initially
2. Cheaper to repair (clutch vs. transmission replacement)
3. Less likely to be stolen because 83% of US population can't drive them
How again is an automatic better in every way?
Don't tell me what I do or do not know. You come off as an [censored].
1. In some case. It depends on the specific car.
2. Sure. Assuming that the automatic ever needs replaced. With care many models have been shown to last indefinitely.
3. Is this a concern of yours when you buy a new car? If it is a crime of opportunity maybe, but if it is targeted and someone wants to steal your car, they're going to get it no matter the transmission type.
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$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
The 128i and 330i seem to be the most common, as they are generally beat on, especially as they get cheaper. It seems to be a combination of mileage and general wear combined with aggressive driving.
So, my assumption would be: cold oil+aggressive driving. I missed one 2006 330xi few weeks back. Had 93k, stick, sport package, blue, looked really clean. However, as I was on the line with sales rep., one person was literally making deposit. Car was on the market less than 24hrs.
There are some good 328xDrives available but it is really ahrd to find stick+sport package+HiD lights.
The 128i and 330i seem to be the most common, as they are generally beat on, especially as they get cheaper. It seems to be a combination of mileage and general wear combined with aggressive driving.
So, my assumption would be: cold oil+aggressive driving. I missed one 2006 330xi few weeks back. Had 93k, stick, sport package, blue, looked really clean. However, as I was on the line with sales rep., one person was literally making deposit. Car was on the market less than 24hrs.
There are some good 328xDrives available but it is really ahrd to find stick+sport package+HiD lights.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
The 128i and 330i seem to be the most common, as they are generally beat on, especially as they get cheaper. It seems to be a combination of mileage and general wear combined with aggressive driving.
So, my assumption would be: cold oil+aggressive driving. I missed one 2006 330xi few weeks back. Had 93k, stick, sport package, blue, looked really clean. However, as I was on the line with sales rep., one person was literally making deposit. Car was on the market less than 24hrs.
There are some good 328xDrives available but it is really ahrd to find stick+sport package+HiD lights.
When the 330i and 530i come up for sale, they go quick. Most are really well equipped. If I was looking for an E90 it would be an LCI 328xi wagon.
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
The 128i and 330i seem to be the most common, as they are generally beat on, especially as they get cheaper. It seems to be a combination of mileage and general wear combined with aggressive driving.
So, my assumption would be: cold oil+aggressive driving. I missed one 2006 330xi few weeks back. Had 93k, stick, sport package, blue, looked really clean. However, as I was on the line with sales rep., one person was literally making deposit. Car was on the market less than 24hrs.
There are some good 328xDrives available but it is really ahrd to find stick+sport package+HiD lights.
When the 330i and 530i come up for sale, they go quick. Most are really well equipped. If I was looking for an E90 it would be an LCI 328xi wagon.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Originally Posted by MCompact
Up until my M235i, every one of "my" BMW s has had three pedals. The thing is, on the track the ZF 8HP shifts exactly the same way I would 99% of the time. I still like a manual behind engines that make maximum torque at high rpm(such as the M42 in my Club Sport), but with the N55 in the 2er peak torque is made from virtually off idle so I'm good with letting the 8HP do the heavy lifting. Still, If I ever get an M2C it will have three pedals(and no hole in the roof).
The ZF 8HP is a brilliant automatic... and I think BMW themselves seem to indicate that the conventional torque converter automatic will soon enough be the go-to performance transmission over the DCT. For one, the 8AT trans can take more torque, I believe. What's more - and this is something I will never understand - a DCT or a PDK or a DSG - i.e. a dual-clutch automated manual - is really, really easy on the synchro's - UPSHIFTING - but super, super hard on the synchro's when a "downshift artist" starts flipping the down-paddle at high road-speed. Dual clutch automated manuals do NOT double-declutch... and so they totally, totally rely on the synchro's - and they are brutal in engaging the speed-gears, by way of making those synchro's work hard! Not brutal in engaging the driveline... but brutal on the speed-gears (if you know what I mean). I guess in retrospect I do understand that people want to flip the paddles... and that they do NOT have a sense of "mechanical sympathy" for the car 'cause they do not really understand what is happening internally. Oh, to finally add this: a conventional performance automatic IS quicker than a dual-clutch automated manual - in Downshifting... at all times. If a DCT has to downshift, say, 2 gears... then it takes 'way longer. The way a conventional automatic downshifts - is pure poetry, in terms of the feel. "The car gets a new set of legs - and it MOTORS!"
Finally, I totally agree with you that the character of the car and the character of the drive-train (i.e. "cammy" versus not) really, really plays a role in whether the car is suited to a manual versus an automatic.
I had both DSG and numerous automatics from ZF and Aisin, and what you saying is far from truth, especially when it comes to Aisin automatics.
ZF8 is close to DCT, DSG or PDK, but CLOSE, not same or faster (i do not want to say better). Also, it depends who programs transmission. ZF8 works in BMW far better than in FCA vehicles etc.
Under upshift conditions, even a performance-automatic (e.g. the most advanced automatic in the Camaro and the outgoing Corvette) is slightly slower than the DCT, DSG, and PDK by way of upshift speed. When it comes to downshifting, things vary. It seems to me that if you are in automatic mode (in your dual clutch automated manual) and you push the accelerator to the extent that it automatically figures it wants to go two gears down - then you get a certain shift-speed (you are on ONE gear-train... and it has to get OUT of that geartrain to the other one... and then BACK to the original geartrain. i.e 2 gears down. If the car thinks you are just generally accelerating at the pace you have been (and the second geartrain selects the next gear up) - well, if you punch it - and it realizes it has to downshift - not upshift - again it depends on whether it is two gears down, or three gears down - it all varies. Sometimes the DSG, in particular, perhaps worst of all - really doddles and IS decidedly slower than the ZF 8 speed A/T.
I believe the way General Motors achieves a quick-action from the paddles with their performance automatic - is somehow they pre-load something in the valve body... and it averts the time-wasting associated with the hydraulics, in some manner (I don't understand the particulars).
I also would like to mention that with a conventional automatic, there is no hindrance or slowness, as I understand it, regardless of how many gears it has to downshift... it can go 5th to 2nd just as happily and fast, as 5 to 3, or 5 to 4. The Dual Clutch - not so much because of odd / even / perceived pre-selected gears versus the driver's change of plan. Take-up, after slowing down for a traffic light, can be slow.
I am told that with a DSG you 'kinda have to drive it so that you can signal to the DSG what your intent will be... i.e. don't totally back-off the gas when you want to come to a stop (with the intent of accelerating fast).... or get on the gas a 'wee bit when you anticipate the light will change... and then punch it.
Maybe others, here, can expand on these matters - of the speed of downshift, for a Dual Clutch.
I totally agree that BMW would appear to have their programming down pat - with regard to the ZF 8 speed automatic. Fiat Chrysler not so much.
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Originally Posted by MCompact
Up until my M235i, every one of "my" BMW s has had three pedals. The thing is, on the track the ZF 8HP shifts exactly the same way I would 99% of the time. I still like a manual behind engines that make maximum torque at high rpm(such as the M42 in my Club Sport), but with the N55 in the 2er peak torque is made from virtually off idle so I'm good with letting the 8HP do the heavy lifting. Still, If I ever get an M2C it will have three pedals(and no hole in the roof).
The ZF 8HP is a brilliant automatic... and I think BMW themselves seem to indicate that the conventional torque converter automatic will soon enough be the go-to performance transmission over the DCT. For one, the 8AT trans can take more torque, I believe. What's more - and this is something I will never understand - a DCT or a PDK or a DSG - i.e. a dual-clutch automated manual - is really, really easy on the synchro's - UPSHIFTING - but super, super hard on the synchro's when a "downshift artist" starts flipping the down-paddle at high road-speed. Dual clutch automated manuals do NOT double-declutch... and so they totally, totally rely on the synchro's - and they are brutal in engaging the speed-gears, by way of making those synchro's work hard! Not brutal in engaging the driveline... but brutal on the speed-gears (if you know what I mean). I guess in retrospect I do understand that people want to flip the paddles... and that they do NOT have a sense of "mechanical sympathy" for the car 'cause they do not really understand what is happening internally. Oh, to finally add this: a conventional performance automatic IS quicker than a dual-clutch automated manual - in Downshifting... at all times. If a DCT has to downshift, say, 2 gears... then it takes 'way longer. The way a conventional automatic downshifts - is pure poetry, in terms of the feel. "The car gets a new set of legs - and it MOTORS!"
Finally, I totally agree with you that the character of the car and the character of the drive-train (i.e. "cammy" versus not) really, really plays a role in whether the car is suited to a manual versus an automatic.
I had both DSG and numerous automatics from ZF and Aisin, and what you saying is far from truth, especially when it comes to Aisin automatics.
ZF8 is close to DCT, DSG or PDK, but CLOSE, not same or faster (i do not want to say better). Also, it depends who programs transmission. ZF8 works in BMW far better than in FCA vehicles etc.
Under upshift conditions, even a performance-automatic (e.g. the most advanced automatic in the Camaro and the outgoing Corvette) is slightly slower than the DCT, DSG, and PDK by way of upshift speed. When it comes to downshifting, things vary. It seems to me that if you are in automatic mode (in your dual clutch automated manual) and you push the accelerator to the extent that it automatically figures it wants to go two gears down - then you get a certain shift-speed (you are on ONE gear-train... and it has to get OUT of that geartrain to the other one... and then BACK to the original geartrain. i.e 2 gears down. If the car thinks you are just generally accelerating at the pace you have been (and the second geartrain selects the next gear up) - well, if you punch it - and it realizes it has to downshift - not upshift - again it depends on whether it is two gears down, or three gears down - it all varies. Sometimes the DSG, in particular, perhaps worst of all - really doddles and IS decidedly slower than the ZF 8 speed A/T.
I believe the way General Motors achieves a quick-action from the paddles with their performance automatic - is somehow they pre-load something in the valve body... and it averts the time-wasting associated with the hydraulics, in some manner (I don't understand the particulars).
I also would like to mention that with a conventional automatic, there is no hindrance or slowness, as I understand it, regardless of how many gears it has to downshift... it can go 5th to 2nd just as happily and fast, as 5 to 3, or 5 to 4. The Dual Clutch - not so much because of odd / even / perceived pre-selected gears versus the driver's change of plan. Take-up, after slowing down for a traffic light, can be slow.
I am told that with a DSG you 'kinda have to drive it so that you can signal to the DSG what your intent will be... i.e. don't totally back-off the gas when you want to come to a stop (with the intent of accelerating fast).... or get on the gas a 'wee bit when you anticipate the light will change... and then punch it.
Maybe others, here, can expand on these matters - of the speed of downshift, for a Dual Clutch.
I totally agree that BMW would appear to have their programming down pat - with regard to the ZF 8 speed automatic. Fiat Chrysler not so much.
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edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Originally Posted by MCompact
Up until my M235i, every one of "my" BMW s has had three pedals. The thing is, on the track the ZF 8HP shifts exactly the same way I would 99% of the time. I still like a manual behind engines that make maximum torque at high rpm(such as the M42 in my Club Sport), but with the N55 in the 2er peak torque is made from virtually off idle so I'm good with letting the 8HP do the heavy lifting. Still, If I ever get an M2C it will have three pedals(and no hole in the roof).
The ZF 8HP is a brilliant automatic... and I think BMW themselves seem to indicate that the conventional torque converter automatic will soon enough be the go-to performance transmission over the DCT. For one, the 8AT trans can take more torque, I believe. What's more - and this is something I will never understand - a DCT or a PDK or a DSG - i.e. a dual-clutch automated manual - is really, really easy on the synchro's - UPSHIFTING - but super, super hard on the synchro's when a "downshift artist" starts flipping the down-paddle at high road-speed. Dual clutch automated manuals do NOT double-declutch... and so they totally, totally rely on the synchro's - and they are brutal in engaging the speed-gears, by way of making those synchro's work hard! Not brutal in engaging the driveline... but brutal on the speed-gears (if you know what I mean). I guess in retrospect I do understand that people want to flip the paddles... and that they do NOT have a sense of "mechanical sympathy" for the car 'cause they do not really understand what is happening internally. Oh, to finally add this: a conventional performance automatic IS quicker than a dual-clutch automated manual - in Downshifting... at all times. If a DCT has to downshift, say, 2 gears... then it takes 'way longer. The way a conventional automatic downshifts - is pure poetry, in terms of the feel. "The car gets a new set of legs - and it MOTORS!"
Finally, I totally agree with you that the character of the car and the character of the drive-train (i.e. "cammy" versus not) really, really plays a role in whether the car is suited to a manual versus an automatic.
I had both DSG and numerous automatics from ZF and Aisin, and what you saying is far from truth, especially when it comes to Aisin automatics.
ZF8 is close to DCT, DSG or PDK, but CLOSE, not same or faster (i do not want to say better). Also, it depends who programs transmission. ZF8 works in BMW far better than in FCA vehicles etc.
Under upshift conditions, even a performance-automatic (e.g. the most advanced automatic in the Camaro and the outgoing Corvette) is slightly slower than the DCT, DSG, and PDK by way of upshift speed. When it comes to downshifting, things vary. It seems to me that if you are in automatic mode (in your dual clutch automated manual) and you push the accelerator to the extent that it automatically figures it wants to go two gears down - then you get a certain shift-speed (you are on ONE gear-train... and it has to get OUT of that geartrain to the other one... and then BACK to the original geartrain. i.e 2 gears down. If the car thinks you are just generally accelerating at the pace you have been (and the second geartrain selects the next gear up) - well, if you punch it - and it realizes it has to downshift - not upshift - again it depends on whether it is two gears down, or three gears down - it all varies. Sometimes the DSG, in particular, perhaps worst of all - really doddles and IS decidedly slower than the ZF 8 speed A/T.
I believe the way General Motors achieves a quick-action from the paddles with their performance automatic - is somehow they pre-load something in the valve body... and it averts the time-wasting associated with the hydraulics, in some manner (I don't understand the particulars).
I also would like to mention that with a conventional automatic, there is no hindrance or slowness, as I understand it, regardless of how many gears it has to downshift... it can go 5th to 2nd just as happily and fast, as 5 to 3, or 5 to 4. The Dual Clutch - not so much because of odd / even / perceived pre-selected gears versus the driver's change of plan. Take-up, after slowing down for a traffic light, can be slow.
I am told that with a DSG you 'kinda have to drive it so that you can signal to the DSG what your intent will be... i.e. don't totally back-off the gas when you want to come to a stop (with the intent of accelerating fast).... or get on the gas a 'wee bit when you anticipate the light will change... and then punch it.
Maybe others, here, can expand on these matters - of the speed of downshift, for a Dual Clutch.
I totally agree that BMW would appear to have their programming down pat - with regard to the ZF 8 speed automatic. Fiat Chrysler not so much.
The most advance automatic in GM, ANY GM, is far cry from ZF8.
BMW and Audi both program ZF8 far better than any, not to mention that ZF8 is more sophisticated transmission than anything from GM. BMW would still use GM transmission if it was otherwise.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
Originally Posted by MCompact
Up until my M235i, every one of "my" BMW s has had three pedals. The thing is, on the track the ZF 8HP shifts exactly the same way I would 99% of the time. I still like a manual behind engines that make maximum torque at high rpm(such as the M42 in my Club Sport), but with the N55 in the 2er peak torque is made from virtually off idle so I'm good with letting the 8HP do the heavy lifting. Still, If I ever get an M2C it will have three pedals(and no hole in the roof).
The ZF 8HP is a brilliant automatic... and I think BMW themselves seem to indicate that the conventional torque converter automatic will soon enough be the go-to performance transmission over the DCT. For one, the 8AT trans can take more torque, I believe. What's more - and this is something I will never understand - a DCT or a PDK or a DSG - i.e. a dual-clutch automated manual - is really, really easy on the synchro's - UPSHIFTING - but super, super hard on the synchro's when a "downshift artist" starts flipping the down-paddle at high road-speed. Dual clutch automated manuals do NOT double-declutch... and so they totally, totally rely on the synchro's - and they are brutal in engaging the speed-gears, by way of making those synchro's work hard! Not brutal in engaging the driveline... but brutal on the speed-gears (if you know what I mean). I guess in retrospect I do understand that people want to flip the paddles... and that they do NOT have a sense of "mechanical sympathy" for the car 'cause they do not really understand what is happening internally. Oh, to finally add this: a conventional performance automatic IS quicker than a dual-clutch automated manual - in Downshifting... at all times. If a DCT has to downshift, say, 2 gears... then it takes 'way longer. The way a conventional automatic downshifts - is pure poetry, in terms of the feel. "The car gets a new set of legs - and it MOTORS!"
Finally, I totally agree with you that the character of the car and the character of the drive-train (i.e. "cammy" versus not) really, really plays a role in whether the car is suited to a manual versus an automatic.
I had both DSG and numerous automatics from ZF and Aisin, and what you saying is far from truth, especially when it comes to Aisin automatics.
ZF8 is close to DCT, DSG or PDK, but CLOSE, not same or faster (i do not want to say better). Also, it depends who programs transmission. ZF8 works in BMW far better than in FCA vehicles etc.
Under upshift conditions, even a performance-automatic (e.g. the most advanced automatic in the Camaro and the outgoing Corvette) is slightly slower than the DCT, DSG, and PDK by way of upshift speed. When it comes to downshifting, things vary. It seems to me that if you are in automatic mode (in your dual clutch automated manual) and you push the accelerator to the extent that it automatically figures it wants to go two gears down - then you get a certain shift-speed (you are on ONE gear-train... and it has to get OUT of that geartrain to the other one... and then BACK to the original geartrain. i.e 2 gears down. If the car thinks you are just generally accelerating at the pace you have been (and the second geartrain selects the next gear up) - well, if you punch it - and it realizes it has to downshift - not upshift - again it depends on whether it is two gears down, or three gears down - it all varies. Sometimes the DSG, in particular, perhaps worst of all - really doddles and IS decidedly slower than the ZF 8 speed A/T.
I believe the way General Motors achieves a quick-action from the paddles with their performance automatic - is somehow they pre-load something in the valve body... and it averts the time-wasting associated with the hydraulics, in some manner (I don't understand the particulars).
I also would like to mention that with a conventional automatic, there is no hindrance or slowness, as I understand it, regardless of how many gears it has to downshift... it can go 5th to 2nd just as happily and fast, as 5 to 3, or 5 to 4. The Dual Clutch - not so much because of odd / even / perceived pre-selected gears versus the driver's change of plan. Take-up, after slowing down for a traffic light, can be slow.
I am told that with a DSG you 'kinda have to drive it so that you can signal to the DSG what your intent will be... i.e. don't totally back-off the gas when you want to come to a stop (with the intent of accelerating fast).... or get on the gas a 'wee bit when you anticipate the light will change... and then punch it.
Maybe others, here, can expand on these matters - of the speed of downshift, for a Dual Clutch.
I totally agree that BMW would appear to have their programming down pat - with regard to the ZF 8 speed automatic. Fiat Chrysler not so much.
The most advance automatic in GM, ANY GM, is far cry from ZF8.
BMW and Audi both program ZF8 far better than any, not to mention that ZF8 is more sophisticated transmission than anything from GM. BMW would still use GM transmission if it was otherwise.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
The 128i and 330i seem to be the most common, as they are generally beat on, especially as they get cheaper. It seems to be a combination of mileage and general wear combined with aggressive driving.
So, my assumption would be: cold oil+aggressive driving. I missed one 2006 330xi few weeks back. Had 93k, stick, sport package, blue, looked really clean. However, as I was on the line with sales rep., one person was literally making deposit. Car was on the market less than 24hrs.
There are some good 328xDrives available but it is really ahrd to find stick+sport package+HiD lights.
When the 330i and 530i come up for sale, they go quick. Most are really well equipped. If I was looking for an E90 it would be an LCI 328xi wagon.
LCI wagon? Man, they go like it is made out of gold. I think there is one going for 24k!!!!
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by rooflessVW
The 128i and 330i seem to be the most common, as they are generally beat on, especially as they get cheaper. It seems to be a combination of mileage and general wear combined with aggressive driving.
So, my assumption would be: cold oil+aggressive driving. I missed one 2006 330xi few weeks back. Had 93k, stick, sport package, blue, looked really clean. However, as I was on the line with sales rep., one person was literally making deposit. Car was on the market less than 24hrs.
There are some good 328xDrives available but it is really ahrd to find stick+sport package+HiD lights.
When the 330i and 530i come up for sale, they go quick. Most are really well equipped. If I was looking for an E90 it would be an LCI 328xi wagon.
LCI wagon? Man, they go like it is made out of gold. I think there is one going for 24k!!!!
I don't necessarily disagree with you re the ZF8. Do you have any answers re the DCT, DSG, PDK downshift speed, relative to the BEST automatic? And/or do you have any comments re the relative longevity of the synchro's or the mechatronic system of any of the dual clutch automated manuals?
Last edited:
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
Originally Posted by Cdn17Sport6MT
I don't necessarily disagree with you re the ZF8. Do you have any answers re the DCT, DSG, PDK downshift speed, relative to the BEST automatic? And/or do you have any comments re the relative longevity of the synchro's or the mechatronic system of any of the dual clutch automated manuals?
I still found DSG to be faster, more reactive in downshifting. And DSG is not best dual clutch, nor worst (among German dual clutches, that would be Mercedes).
As for synchro, I have not seen failed ones. DSG had mechatronics issue up until mid-2012. My car was 2010. I never had an issue as I was changing fluid every 40k, and it seems that was way to mitigate it. However, many torque converters have mechatronics issue too.
I do agree however that ZF8 is very, very close to dual clutch which brings the question of necessity of complexity of dual clutch. But it seems manufacturers are still willing to invest into dual clutch, including ZF that makes PDK.
I don't necessarily disagree with you re the ZF8. Do you have any answers re the DCT, DSG, PDK downshift speed, relative to the BEST automatic? And/or do you have any comments re the relative longevity of the synchro's or the mechatronic system of any of the dual clutch automated manuals?
I still found DSG to be faster, more reactive in downshifting. And DSG is not best dual clutch, nor worst (among German dual clutches, that would be Mercedes).
As for synchro, I have not seen failed ones. DSG had mechatronics issue up until mid-2012. My car was 2010. I never had an issue as I was changing fluid every 40k, and it seems that was way to mitigate it. However, many torque converters have mechatronics issue too.
I do agree however that ZF8 is very, very close to dual clutch which brings the question of necessity of complexity of dual clutch. But it seems manufacturers are still willing to invest into dual clutch, including ZF that makes PDK.
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Ok - thx.
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