Buy a Volt so they can justify their job

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Yeah when you do the math the people who traded in their now worthless SUV for an econobox, lost their shirt. It was false economics even with $4 gallon gas future predictions. Plus gas went down to under $3/gal shortly after. So they got took almost Wallstreet style. Penny wise and pound foolish I always say.

I'm hesistant enough to start driving a death trap, cramped and noisy econobox just due to the speculators playing with gas prices. I'm sure not going to take a 10K or whatever loss on trade in to do it.
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

I dissagree that most that buy the Prius do so to "cut costs". ]


The seven people I either know or have talked to about why they bought the Prius (because I am thinking of getting one) all did so to reduce their commuting costs as they all have 30+ mile (one way) commutes. Three of them actually traded full size SUV's in on them. They all cited the $4/gallon gas prices as the motivator and the fact that the fuel savings offset the payments. The environment was an "also ran" consideration. I did the same thing in 2008 by trading in the entire family fleet on 3 models with more fuel efficiency...the almost 40% fuel cost savings is enough to offset payments. So while the "greenies" touted the Prius initially...the $3.50+ gallon fuel prices made it mainstream. One guy I know has a Prius and a nice 2005 Corvette convertible for the weekends. He dumped his Tahoe for the Prius.


Comparing the Prius to a full size SUV is a straw man argument. The real question is would those same people have cut more costs by buying a smaller vehicle that got good mileage that didnt include the added costs of the Hybrid design. They cut costs VS their previous SUV, yes, but they added commute costs by choosing the Prius over any other car that gets 35+ MPG at a lower initial investment.

Obviously the ROI of a Prius would be quick vs a SUV. But that same Prius vs a TDI, Fit or a Focus and the math gets much worse. The choice of a Hybrid over a similar high mileage small car cant be explained on a cost basis alone. It just doesn't add up in that comparison.


When you see fuel prices in 5 years...you might rethink what you are saying. If I had a new plug in Prius my gasoline bill to drive to work and back would be zero.
 
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yeah when you do the math the people who traded in their now worthless SUV for an econobox, lost their shirt. It was false economics even with $4 gallon gas future predictions. Plus gas went down to under $3/gal shortly after. So they got took almost Wallstreet style. Penny wise and pound foolish I always say.

I'm hesistant enough to start driving a death trap, cramped and noisy econobox just due to the speculators playing with gas prices. I'm sure not going to take a 10K or whatever loss on trade in to do it.





Not true...drive a Chevy Tahoe for 3 years and compare the cost of maintenance/fuel and depreciation and you will see the Hybrids like the Prius beat them financially all the way to the bank. Gas will be back at $3-4 as the economy picks back up. As the dollar drops in value some people driving imports will see their depreciation schedule climb and their used market value climb as import prices climb, domestic used car prices remain flat and SUV prices continue to plunge. This happened back in the 1970's with European cars. Some VW beetle owners sold their 2-3 year old bugs for more than they paid. It is hapening now. I have 2 lease Toyotas and will be able to sell or trade them in 2011 for $1-3,000 more than the lease buyout estimate of 2008. If you own a domestic SUV you have already taken the loss...it just hasn't posted yet because the longer you hold it the more you lose. At 5 years a $60,000 GM SUV is worth about $12-15k. That is $7,000 per year cost to the owner.Then add in fuel and you are close to $10k a year. Which is 5 years is enough money to buy 2 Toyota Prius's. Then add back the trade in value of the two Prius Hybrids at 5 years and you have 75% of the value of a 3rd...the fuel savings for the two Hybrids over the 10 driving years is enough to pay the balance of the cost of #3. Do the math.
 
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We bought a Corolla with the 1.8L. It does a consistent 38 mpg on the highyway.

My Fusion gets about 30.

That's about as close to hybrid that we'll ever get unless we are forced.

My pickup truck sits in the driveway. Probably less than 4,000 miles a year on that one. It's for hauling livestock and equipment and the kids borrow it from time to time for hauling their stuff.
21.gif


Previous car was a Focus with a 2.0L and about 34. The wife had an Escort that did about the same. Drove a little Plymouth Horizon 2.2L 270,xxx miles before it rusted in half. Well, almost.
 
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Sometimes real life is worse than any nightmare. Hope you have had a lot of good times over the years, because that way of life is coming to an end.
 
Originally Posted By: nthach
Prius/Camry/Altima/Highlander/Escape Hybrids do just fine here. MUNI bought a few of those Orion VII hybrid buses, I'm not that impressed them with them - think a Civic Hybrid on steroids. I'm surprised SF isn't having the same issues NYC is. They should have bought a GM/Allison hybrid system bus instead :p


My municipality is very enviromentally concious, we even have some prius in the fleet. The Allison Hybrids are only showing a 10% improvement in F.E. and we are not the only ones that are not getting what we are supposed to out of them. The decision was made not to get any more at this time.
 
meh, sorry but my girlfriends corolla is about as hippie and envioronment friendly as I can get. It gets 38-40mpg thats good enough for me.

And I got to say the dancing is...original. bleh
 
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yeah when you do the math the people who traded in their now worthless SUV for an econobox, lost their shirt. It was false economics even with $4 gallon gas future predictions. Plus gas went down to under $3/gal shortly after. So they got took almost Wallstreet style. Penny wise and pound foolish I always say.

I'm hesistant enough to start driving a death trap, cramped and noisy econobox just due to the speculators playing with gas prices. I'm sure not going to take a 10K or whatever loss on trade in to do it.






Not true...drive a Chevy Tahoe for 3 years and compare the cost of maintenance/fuel and depreciation and you will see the Hybrids like the Prius beat them financially all the way to the bank. Gas will be back at $3-4 as the economy picks back up. As the dollar drops in value some people driving imports will see their depreciation schedule climb and their used market value climb as import prices climb, domestic used car prices remain flat and SUV prices continue to plunge. This happened back in the 1970's with European cars. Some VW beetle owners sold their 2-3 year old bugs for more than they paid. It is hapening now. I have 2 lease Toyotas and will be able to sell or trade them in 2011 for $1-3,000 more than the lease buyout estimate of 2008. If you own a domestic SUV you have already taken the loss...it just hasn't posted yet because the longer you hold it the more you lose. At 5 years a $60,000 GM SUV is worth about $12-15k. That is $7,000 per year cost to the owner.Then add in fuel and you are close to $10k a year. Which is 5 years is enough money to buy 2 Toyota Prius's. Then add back the trade in value of the two Prius Hybrids at 5 years and you have 75% of the value of a 3rd...the fuel savings for the two Hybrids over the 10 driving years is enough to pay the balance of the cost of #3. Do the math.


I don't agree with your numbers. People traded in their 1-3 year old SUV that at that point was worth the least for a 10,000 or more loss. A loss they would never had to realize if they would've held. Then bought a Prius that was probably worth at least 2 grand less on trade in the moment they drove it off the lot. Then within a year or so gas went under $2/gal and is still under $3. Now their SUV might have been worth more relativily considering they wouldn't had to take the loss, and their hybrid isn't so valuable now. They would have to do a lot of driving over several years to make up for their loss with gas savings. You can debate the numbers but I think the smart buyer would've bought one of these SUV used at fire sale prices instead of selling them low and buying a hot seller Prius.
 
Originally Posted By: Duffman77
Originally Posted By: nthach
Prius/Camry/Altima/Highlander/Escape Hybrids do just fine here. MUNI bought a few of those Orion VII hybrid buses, I'm not that impressed them with them - think a Civic Hybrid on steroids. I'm surprised SF isn't having the same issues NYC is. They should have bought a GM/Allison hybrid system bus instead :p


My municipality is very enviromentally concious, we even have some prius in the fleet. The Allison Hybrids are only showing a 10% improvement in F.E. and we are not the only ones that are not getting what we are supposed to out of them. The decision was made not to get any more at this time.

If the friggin' San Francisco Muni have gotten the Allison-based New Flyer or Gillig hybrids instead of the BAE-based Orions - which IMO are better suited for San Francisco. The Orions are just like a Honda trapped in a bus body - they thrive best at constant speeds.
 
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Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Yeah when you do the math the people who traded in their now worthless SUV for an econobox, lost their shirt. It was false economics even with $4 gallon gas future predictions. Plus gas went down to under $3/gal shortly after. So they got took almost Wallstreet style. Penny wise and pound foolish I always say.

I'm hesistant enough to start driving a death trap, cramped and noisy econobox just due to the speculators playing with gas prices. I'm sure not going to take a 10K or whatever loss on trade in to do it.






Not true...drive a Chevy Tahoe for 3 years and compare the cost of maintenance/fuel and depreciation and you will see the Hybrids like the Prius beat them financially all the way to the bank. Gas will be back at $3-4 as the economy picks back up. As the dollar drops in value some people driving imports will see their depreciation schedule climb and their used market value climb as import prices climb, domestic used car prices remain flat and SUV prices continue to plunge. This happened back in the 1970's with European cars. Some VW beetle owners sold their 2-3 year old bugs for more than they paid. It is hapening now. I have 2 lease Toyotas and will be able to sell or trade them in 2011 for $1-3,000 more than the lease buyout estimate of 2008. If you own a domestic SUV you have already taken the loss...it just hasn't posted yet because the longer you hold it the more you lose. At 5 years a $60,000 GM SUV is worth about $12-15k. That is $7,000 per year cost to the owner.Then add in fuel and you are close to $10k a year. Which is 5 years is enough money to buy 2 Toyota Prius's. Then add back the trade in value of the two Prius Hybrids at 5 years and you have 75% of the value of a 3rd...the fuel savings for the two Hybrids over the 10 driving years is enough to pay the balance of the cost of #3. Do the math.


I don't agree with your numbers. People traded in their 1-3 year old SUV that at that point was worth the least for a 10,000 or more loss. A loss they would never had to realize if they would've held. Then bought a Prius that was probably worth at least 2 grand less on trade in the moment they drove it off the lot. Then within a year or so gas went under $2/gal and is still under $3. Now their SUV might have been worth more relativily considering they wouldn't had to take the loss, and their hybrid isn't so valuable now. They would have to do a lot of driving over several years to make up for their loss with gas savings. You can debate the numbers but I think the smart buyer would've bought one of these SUV used at fire sale prices instead of selling them low and buying a hot seller Prius.


Who wants one? I have no earthly use for one. An SUV for me would be a huge, useless gas guzzler seldom needed.
 
Who wants an SUV?

I want one. No, I want two. Nice cushy ride. Very comfortable. The seat/vehicle height is higher and it allows the driver to sort of see over traffic. You can tow stuff with them and 4WD is handy, too.

Getting into an accident means that there's more metal around you (not like you'd be driving a beer can).

But hey, to each his own, according to their needs.

My all time favorite vehicle to drive is a one-ton pickup truck with dual wheels, and I actually own one. Certainly, it sits a lot but is REALLY handy when you need it. Mooooo.

Now, if we lived in the city, had no livestock, no property, etc. - then things might be quite different.

Some of my cows are bigger than Smart Cars.

crackmeup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: nthach
LG and Samsung SDI are small fish in the worldwide Li-Ion/Polymer cell market compared to the Chinese OEMs(Simplo, GP, Amperex - 2 of them are OEM suppliers to Apple), Sony, Sanyo and Panasonic. LG and Samsung don't even make their own cells for their cell phones even, they buy from the Japanese 3 or the Chinese and assemble them in Korea in house or have a company like DynaPack in Taiwan/China handle the assembly.

Ford currently sources their NiMHs from Sanyo, while Toyota/Honda/GM go through Panasonic EV.



What does all that have to do with where the batteries will be built?

The batteries for the Volt will be built in Michigan, sourcing for components, like I said will be global.


The ability to source finished batteries and raw materials is actually being viewed as a national security issue. Thus why I said before that the Volt is no joke.

There are a few manufacturers of finished cells/batteries in the USA, but most of the work is done in Korea and elsewhere. We are VERY reliant on the Pacific rim for our advanced batteries, and as mentioned before, this has come back to bite us bigtime.
 
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: nthach
LG and Samsung SDI are small fish in the worldwide Li-Ion/Polymer cell market compared to the Chinese OEMs(Simplo, GP, Amperex - 2 of them are OEM suppliers to Apple), Sony, Sanyo and Panasonic. LG and Samsung don't even make their own cells for their cell phones even, they buy from the Japanese 3 or the Chinese and assemble them in Korea in house or have a company like DynaPack in Taiwan/China handle the assembly.

Ford currently sources their NiMHs from Sanyo, while Toyota/Honda/GM go through Panasonic EV.



What does all that have to do with where the batteries will be built?

The batteries for the Volt will be built in Michigan, sourcing for components, like I said will be global.


The ability to source finished batteries and raw materials is actually being viewed as a national security issue. Thus why I said before that the Volt is no joke.

There are a few manufacturers of finished cells/batteries in the USA, but most of the work is done in Korea and elsewhere. We are VERY reliant on the Pacific rim for our advanced batteries, and as mentioned before, this has come back to bite us bigtime.

Plus the FAA has decreed that NO loose Li-Ion/Li-Polymer batteries are allowed on passenger aircraft unless it is installed in a cell phone, PDA/iPod, laptop or the device it powers.
 
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Originally Posted By: kballowe
Originally Posted By: PT1
Originally Posted By: kballowe

Electric car? Hmmmmmm. Not something that I'd even entertained. Might be OK for some others.


I said the same thing until I got a Prius for a day as a loaner. very utilitarian. But it would make a fine commuter car and a great teenager daily driver. I was very imperssed with it. Go drive one. You will be amazed at the technology.


Yeah but I couldn't handle all of the moon bats wanting to talk to me about my "green" car.
21.gif




I didn't get any of that because they are a common sight around here. I see a Prius on the road every day.
 
Originally Posted By: kballowe
Who wants an SUV?

I want one. No, I want two. Nice cushy ride. Very comfortable. The seat/vehicle height is higher and it allows the driver to sort of see over traffic. You can tow stuff with them and 4WD is handy, too.

Getting into an accident means that there's more metal around you (not like you'd be driving a beer can).

But hey, to each his own, according to their needs.

My all time favorite vehicle to drive is a one-ton pickup truck with dual wheels, and I actually own one. Certainly, it sits a lot but is REALLY handy when you need it. Mooooo.

Now, if we lived in the city, had no livestock, no property, etc. - then things might be quite different.

Some of my cows are bigger than Smart Cars.

crackmeup2.gif



If I had a farm or the kiddies were little again I'd have a big SUV...I have a 4Runner now which is a small SUV since I have to haul college kiddie stuff 2-4x each year back & forth. But on a Farm I think I would have a Ford F250 with dual cab. The 1 ton dualies just look like a 747 trying to take off on one engine...like they are going to pop a hernia every time you start from a dead stop. My 4Runner has 4.88 gears so it is great around town. The 5 speed trans makes it good on the freeway as well.
 
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Originally Posted By: nthach

Plus the FAA has decreed that NO loose Li-Ion/Li-Polymer batteries are allowed on passenger aircraft unless it is installed in a cell phone, PDA/iPod, laptop or the device it powers.


Which IMO is kind of smart, and kind of dumb...

It is dumb because most failures are related overcharge, generally because Li metal is just a few millivolts over graphite, and so it is easy to plate it and then create shorts. If the battery is not installed, it is not charging or doing anything, so the chances for a failure are lower due to non-use.

It is smart because on a place, loose batteries would likely be spares, stored in a full-charge state. Delithiated cathodes (uncharged) are when they are the most unstable, and this is how they are stored. If a latent defect is present, there is the most charge to release as resistive heat and create an issue.
 
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