MolaKule
Staff member
I don't know about the pilot's experience or training or whether the plane was overloaded but I am sure the NTSB will analyze this unfortunate and deadly crash.
Last edited:
Butler Skydiving crash By Juan Browne
- Thread starter MolaKule
- Start date
Juan is particularly, uncharacteristically, feisty in this one.
I share his frustration, though, as pilots who never learned to stall/spin really don’t understand what happens at or past the stall AOA.
And pilots who never learned that, are just foolish enough to try and turn after a loss of power on takeoff at low altitude.
The POH in this case is blunt and accurate, goal of a power loss on takeoff is to preserve life.
Not the airplane.
I share his frustration, though, as pilots who never learned to stall/spin really don’t understand what happens at or past the stall AOA.
And pilots who never learned that, are just foolish enough to try and turn after a loss of power on takeoff at low altitude.
The POH in this case is blunt and accurate, goal of a power loss on takeoff is to preserve life.
Not the airplane.
One of the first things you learn is that if power is lost in a single at low altitude the only option is to land more or less straight ahead. If you get to a stalling angle of attack there is no holding the airplane up. It will stall and if the nose is not lowered at once things will get very ugly.
All the pilot can do is try for the most level ground he can find ahead and to try to aim between the trees.
A 270 (not just a 180) to return to the departure runway is not possible without some altitude to work with.
This was a really tragic accident and the pilot may not have been well enough trained or sufficiently experienced.
All the pilot can do is try for the most level ground he can find ahead and to try to aim between the trees.
A 270 (not just a 180) to return to the departure runway is not possible without some altitude to work with.
This was a really tragic accident and the pilot may not have been well enough trained or sufficiently experienced.
Hard to believe that someone flying an airplane with 11 skydivers would be inexperienced enough to make a mistake this seemingly basic.
Sadly, it’s pretty easy to believe. Low time pilot gets his commercial rating, no instrument, no multi, and works hauling skydivers to build time. The commercial requirements are pretty minimal, 250 hours, written, check ride.
Hard to know how well they were trained. Harder still to know how a person responds under pressure.
Lots of people seem fine, and say all the right things, but under pressure, when the adrenaline spikes (and it was spiked on this day, I am certain), they do something completely different.
It’s the fight/flight response. Amygdala hijack. When the adrenaline hits, people freeze, or act out of instinct. Frontal cortex activity is reduced. Auditory exclusion takes place. Tunnel vision. Increased heart rate and respiration. Increased muscle strength.
Great for our ancient ancestors facing a Sabre-tooth tiger, not so great in a complex, technical environment, particularly the frontal cortex function loss.
This is what makes simulator training so valuable. You can create all the stress of a situation like this engine failure. Over and over. Pilots become de-sensitized to it. They learn to respond correctly. They overcome the Amygdala hijack.
But you generally don’t get simulator training at the experience level of this pilot, or as part of the commercial pilot track, until you’re at an airline that can afford simulators.
Last edited:
That's why before my students advanced the throttle for takeoff, I would always ask the question, if we lose power after liftoff, where do we go? Straight ahead is the only answer. I have probably heard myself say that thousands of times. It really is the only answer.
MolaKule
Staff member
When I was skydiving at Jonesboro Mo we flew up in a Cessna 185 series and we all set on the floor since all other cabin internals had been removed. No more than 4 divers and one instructor were in the plane at once. Our pilot was a trusted friend who worked at the same company, MDC.
The first three jumps were static line jumps at 5,000 feet. Further jumps were at 10,000 feet and were freefall ripcord jumps. All jumps used the Army canopy chutes. At the fifth jump and beyond, you had to purchase your own jump insurance.
There were other skydiving groups at the same airport who jumped using the ram air type chutes. One group had Flintstones outfits and another group had clown outfits. In the evening after all jumps, we set around the campfire and discussed......skydiving.
Skydiving is not for the faint hearted.
The first three jumps were static line jumps at 5,000 feet. Further jumps were at 10,000 feet and were freefall ripcord jumps. All jumps used the Army canopy chutes. At the fifth jump and beyond, you had to purchase your own jump insurance.
There were other skydiving groups at the same airport who jumped using the ram air type chutes. One group had Flintstones outfits and another group had clown outfits. In the evening after all jumps, we set around the campfire and discussed......skydiving.
Skydiving is not for the faint hearted.
slo town
$200 Site Donor 2026
You've jumped more than I have, and your comment about it not being for the faint hearted is very true. The rush of my first jump, a static line jump from 2,800 feet, was so intense I wondered why people didn't have heart attacks from the rush. But once the chute opens, there is nothing more peaceful and quiet.
When I picked up my reserve chute (one size fits all) I remember the guy asking me how much I weighed. When I told him I remember him telling me "If you have to use this thing you're gonna come down fast!"
We had a full day of training beforehand. The moment your chute opens you always look up for a "Mae West", and if you see one you pull your capewells and "cut away" from your main chute without any hesitation. Never deploy your reserve into "garbage"!!! Also too, they train you to jump the instant they tell you to jump. NO HESITATION!
Scott
Last edited:
Absolutely cluster
MolaKule
Staff member
True. And it's amazing that you can hear farmers talking from a mile away.
During my first landing a gust of wind blew me backwards and I rolled about three times. I got on my feet to gather the chute and this kid from out of nowhere jumped in the middle and collapsed it. I thanked him and asked where he came from. He said mom told me to, besides, she packed your chute. When he pointed to her I went over and gave her a hug and thanks.
Same here. On the first day we trained from 8:00AM to 3PM and then went up. We did have one lady who decided not to jump at the last minute so the sequence of static lines had to be changed. Her husband went ahead and jumped. Some kind of anniversary gift I later found out.
One thing you don't do is reach up and grab the lines in panic. I witnessed a girl do just that on her first jump and it created a "streamer." The reserve backup chute had an altimeter/accelerometer which fired at about 800 feet and she landed in a soft soybean field miraculously without injuries. She was never allowed to come back.
slo town
$200 Site Donor 2026
Yes! The peaceful tranquillity while hanging under the parachute is indescribable. Because you're drifting with the wind, you're in near total silence.
Like you, my parachute was the old style, round, military chute but I was surprised how maneuverable they were by pulling the toggles. I jumped in a rural area but there were power lines and a nearby lake. We had plenty of room to land where we were supposed to but that did add an extra element to the jump. You made any turns well in advance. The jolt of the chute opening is almost violent!
We were taught to land with the Parachute Landing Fall technique (PLF). I'll loosely describe it as a controlled folding of your legs and twisting of your hips when you land. I found that hard to do. Even though the main chutes were sized by body weight I was surprised how hard I impacted the ground.
Scott
slo town
$200 Site Donor 2026
Speaking of skydiving, this video of parasailing is gorgeous. You'll need sound.
Scott
Scott
Are you a full-time CFI ?
I agree with straight ahead and not worry about destroyed aircraft or FAA / NTSB questioning.
No, I haven't given instruction for 20 years, but now that I'm retired I'm thinking about giving instruction again. At one time I worked as a full time instructor at a small airport (1C2) in Chicagoland. Being the only instructor, I was busy virtually all day every day. I flew probably 30 different make/models giving primary, instrument, commercial, biennials, instrument competency checks, aircraft familiarization, spin training, on and on. It was great experience and a times a bit scary. I had several "I learned about flying from that" moments that I will never forget and that taught me a lot about flying.
I was pretty clueless about how little I knew about flying until I started teaching flying. As I have said before, new students aren't trying to kill you, it's just that they don't know how not to kill you. You have to be on your game all the time.
Perhaps we should patiently await the investigation and final NTSB report rather than joining the “YouTube Legends” in adding Jet-A to the pilot’s funeral pyre.
You’ve mentioned students in the past and was wondering if you were CFI full time.
I’m sure you’ve have a few near misses with a few students and interesting stories.
Similar threads
