Burning oil after trying synthetic
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My experience in using Mobil 1 in an engine that has not previously used it or not used it for awhile and started using it again is that there is a higher oil usage during the first OCI then it decreases. Though Mobil 1 in my Contour Zetec always used more oil than the "old" Castrol Syntec and Schaeffer's Supreme Blend, which use none during the 5,000 mile OCI. The Mobil 1 and Schaeffer Supreme Blend were 5w30. The Castrol Syntec was 5W-50. That was a mistake from a power and fuel usage standpoint, both were worse. "Thickerer ain't always betterer"
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Whimsey
Whimsey
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Change your oil filter. The old process was to do a couple of extra filter changes in the OCI's when switching from mineral to synthetic or when changing oil brands.
I remember reading it was due to removing of varnish etc due to slightly different additive packs within the oil. Some reported it can take up to 2 OCI's to clean and readjust the internal seal/oil chemistry etc until burning diminishes.
Cannot hurt one filter plus one litre of fresh oil (with fresh additives) it can only help. Try it and report back. Have a read of the link below from an Amsoil site it explains it better than me.
http://www.pecuniary.com/faq/high-mileage.html
If you go down the ARX path wait until you have a couple of extra oil filters changes and complete the OCI and see what tranpsired. If you use ARX I suggest use the maintenance dose approach with an extra filter change in the OCI, it may take longer but will cheaper in the long run. IMO SM oil have pretty good cleaner additives anyway.
Some experienced consumption when switching drained the oil straight away, and switched back to the old brand, and consumption went away. That’s just a waste of time and money, give it a chance as per above.
I remember reading it was due to removing of varnish etc due to slightly different additive packs within the oil. Some reported it can take up to 2 OCI's to clean and readjust the internal seal/oil chemistry etc until burning diminishes.
Cannot hurt one filter plus one litre of fresh oil (with fresh additives) it can only help. Try it and report back. Have a read of the link below from an Amsoil site it explains it better than me.
http://www.pecuniary.com/faq/high-mileage.html
If you go down the ARX path wait until you have a couple of extra oil filters changes and complete the OCI and see what tranpsired. If you use ARX I suggest use the maintenance dose approach with an extra filter change in the OCI, it may take longer but will cheaper in the long run. IMO SM oil have pretty good cleaner additives anyway.
Some experienced consumption when switching drained the oil straight away, and switched back to the old brand, and consumption went away. That’s just a waste of time and money, give it a chance as per above.
So from what I gather it would be wise for me to just stick with synthetic? I stick with 5k OCI. I mean, synthetic is still cheap for DIYs.
Saturns are known to be oil burners down the road. Maybe synthetic would do a better/cleaner job of keeping the rings from sticking?; if it is as you say "removing varnish."
Saturns are known to be oil burners down the road. Maybe synthetic would do a better/cleaner job of keeping the rings from sticking?; if it is as you say "removing varnish."
I am suggesting when you first switch there is a change over process to follow. Change the oil filter and see if the consumption reduces, read the above.
After the 2nd OCI just change do a full oil change and filter and replace the oil filter just once in the 2nd OCI. As it is difficult to estimate how long the change over process will take, my past reading suggests that the burning should stop after 3 OCI's. Even when changing mineral brands sometimes oil filters need to be changed during the OCI.
In response to stick with Synthetics, the consensus on this board is a TRUE PAO Group 4 synthetic is generally better as it is more stable and the base oil is less likely to breakdown and is better equipped to cope with extreme driving conditions. Eg if I was in a cold climate I would use Group 4 only, regardless of cost.
The new mineral (Group 3) SM rated oils are beginning to mimic the properties of synthetics of the past, and some that were PAO advocates have converted to Group 3 synthetics for their vehicle. I am one who used primarily used PAO oils (for 8 years)thinking they were was the best. Regarding cleaning properties these vary from oil to oil, this I gatherm is primarily due to the oil additives makeup. The new SL and SM range I understand are very good at cleaning.
In 2005 the cost of Mobil 1 5w50 went from $45 to $65 for 5L so I seriously questioned Group 4’s for my vehicle. About the same time there was all of the hoohaa about manufacturers eg (Mobil 1) substituting Group 3 for Group 4 and after considering the positive feedback and review SM oils, I switched to Group 3 synthetics.
I kept my OCI at 6 months or 10000km like I did when I used Group 4 synthetics. I stretched out the OCI recommended by the OEM to its maximum potential.
I trust this helps. It is a little long, but I felt I had to give some of my own experience. For you, I would experiment for 12 months or so, if synthetics don’t work, for I would switch back to a SM mineral (or Group 3 mineral synthetic).
After the 2nd OCI just change do a full oil change and filter and replace the oil filter just once in the 2nd OCI. As it is difficult to estimate how long the change over process will take, my past reading suggests that the burning should stop after 3 OCI's. Even when changing mineral brands sometimes oil filters need to be changed during the OCI.
In response to stick with Synthetics, the consensus on this board is a TRUE PAO Group 4 synthetic is generally better as it is more stable and the base oil is less likely to breakdown and is better equipped to cope with extreme driving conditions. Eg if I was in a cold climate I would use Group 4 only, regardless of cost.
The new mineral (Group 3) SM rated oils are beginning to mimic the properties of synthetics of the past, and some that were PAO advocates have converted to Group 3 synthetics for their vehicle. I am one who used primarily used PAO oils (for 8 years)thinking they were was the best. Regarding cleaning properties these vary from oil to oil, this I gatherm is primarily due to the oil additives makeup. The new SL and SM range I understand are very good at cleaning.
In 2005 the cost of Mobil 1 5w50 went from $45 to $65 for 5L so I seriously questioned Group 4’s for my vehicle. About the same time there was all of the hoohaa about manufacturers eg (Mobil 1) substituting Group 3 for Group 4 and after considering the positive feedback and review SM oils, I switched to Group 3 synthetics.
I kept my OCI at 6 months or 10000km like I did when I used Group 4 synthetics. I stretched out the OCI recommended by the OEM to its maximum potential.
I trust this helps. It is a little long, but I felt I had to give some of my own experience. For you, I would experiment for 12 months or so, if synthetics don’t work, for I would switch back to a SM mineral (or Group 3 mineral synthetic).
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Forgot to include.
If you are worried about varnish, ADD Auto-RX to the engine oil using the maintenace dose (ratio 3oz to 5L). Either add 3 oz directly to engine, or if you are doing a full oil change just add the 3oz to the 5L jug of engine oil and mix it. Then you have the correct ratio for any top up requirements during the OCI.
If you are worried about varnish, ADD Auto-RX to the engine oil using the maintenace dose (ratio 3oz to 5L). Either add 3 oz directly to engine, or if you are doing a full oil change just add the 3oz to the 5L jug of engine oil and mix it. Then you have the correct ratio for any top up requirements during the OCI.
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Update: oil has gotten slightly darker on dipstick, down half quart after 2,000 miles. I will top off this week with Mobil 1 10w30. I have decided to stick with synthetic. Hopefully this will help prevent future oil burning in my Saturn which these engines are known for.
2,000 miles and 1/2 quart consumption is not bad at all. I think I will use the 10w30 Mobil 1 next time as it holds its grade better according to UOA.
Question....would it be ok just to top off with the 1/2 quart and change the oil/filter out at my planned 5k mile OCI or is it imperative I change the filter out now? Should I maybe make my OCI shorter incase the additives are used up from the cleansing process?
Thanks for any help.
2,000 miles and 1/2 quart consumption is not bad at all. I think I will use the 10w30 Mobil 1 next time as it holds its grade better according to UOA.
Question....would it be ok just to top off with the 1/2 quart and change the oil/filter out at my planned 5k mile OCI or is it imperative I change the filter out now? Should I maybe make my OCI shorter incase the additives are used up from the cleansing process?
Thanks for any help.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
My experience in using Mobil 1 in an engine that has not previously used it or not used it for awhile and started using it again is that there is a higher oil usage during the first OCI then it decreases.
Very common in MB diesel circles. Folks would switch to M1 anywhere from 80-280k miles, they would see some usage and then it would go away.
Reason? Who knows. Benefit: about half the timing chain wear of running a non-syn oil.
JMH
My experience in using Mobil 1 in an engine that has not previously used it or not used it for awhile and started using it again is that there is a higher oil usage during the first OCI then it decreases.
Very common in MB diesel circles. Folks would switch to M1 anywhere from 80-280k miles, they would see some usage and then it would go away.
Reason? Who knows. Benefit: about half the timing chain wear of running a non-syn oil.
JMH
Perfect for my Saturn's engine with the timing chain.
Also, these engines are known for burning oil in their later lives from carbon buildup on piston rings. Hopefully a good synthetic like Mobil 1 will help out and prevent the rings from sticking.
I live up north so it also has its benefits in winter. I think though, that I will use the 10w30 from now on as it seems like it is a better grade compared to the 5w30.
I will post back with updates periodically if the usage stops. Still, 1/2 quart in 2,000 miles is nothing to be too concerned about. I'm sure it will stop in the next few OCIs.
Also, these engines are known for burning oil in their later lives from carbon buildup on piston rings. Hopefully a good synthetic like Mobil 1 will help out and prevent the rings from sticking.
I live up north so it also has its benefits in winter. I think though, that I will use the 10w30 from now on as it seems like it is a better grade compared to the 5w30.
I will post back with updates periodically if the usage stops. Still, 1/2 quart in 2,000 miles is nothing to be too concerned about. I'm sure it will stop in the next few OCIs.
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Happened in a major way for me going from Delvac 1 to Rotella T synth. No consumption for 12k+ and then 1 quart in 3k. It took 3 OCIs (3k,6k,9k changed every time it used a quart) to finally go back to zero (over 9k, which is what I settled on as an OCI). I was freaked.
I would just use any SM rated conventional in your Saturn if you are only doing 5k mile OCI's. Conventional oils are so good these days I really see no advantage to using synthetics in a small normally aspirated 4 cyl when doing short OCI's.
You could even try some of the high-mileage oils like Maxlife to see if that reduces consumption.
You could even try some of the high-mileage oils like Maxlife to see if that reduces consumption.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
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Reason? Who knows. Benefit: about half the timing chain wear of running a non-syn oil.
JMH
JMH, I didn't know using M1 results in half the timing chain wear compared to conventional oil. I've seen here on BITOG thinking that using M1 results in greater cam wear. I know these are two different components, but could you help me understand? And your comment seems to generalize about synthetics, or is it only M1? Thanks!
...
Reason? Who knows. Benefit: about half the timing chain wear of running a non-syn oil.
JMH
JMH, I didn't know using M1 results in half the timing chain wear compared to conventional oil. I've seen here on BITOG thinking that using M1 results in greater cam wear. I know these are two different components, but could you help me understand? And your comment seems to generalize about synthetics, or is it only M1? Thanks!
Originally Posted By: GMFan
So from what I gather it would be wise for me to just stick with synthetic? I stick with 5k OCI. I mean, synthetic is still cheap for DIYs.
Saturns are known to be oil burners down the road. Maybe synthetic would do a better/cleaner job of keeping the rings from sticking?; if it is as you say "removing varnish."
have you ever visited saturnfans? the favorite trick there is an MMO soak. it helped my old '93 SC1 that I swapped a well used DOHC into. but it didn't do much for a friends' '00 SW2.
the issue w/ the saturn 1.9 is no oil holes in the pistons. the rings get stuck in the ring lands of the pistons. a MMO soak overnight tends to loosen up the rings. I think if I had an S series again, I would go w/ auto-rx.
another contributing factor w/ saturns oil consumption is the PCV. only the OEM one works well.
most saturn owners are too cheap for syn, and just use whatever they can get, since it doesn't seem to stay in there that long anyway. if you get the consumption issue sorted out, syn would be fine.
So from what I gather it would be wise for me to just stick with synthetic? I stick with 5k OCI. I mean, synthetic is still cheap for DIYs.
Saturns are known to be oil burners down the road. Maybe synthetic would do a better/cleaner job of keeping the rings from sticking?; if it is as you say "removing varnish."
have you ever visited saturnfans? the favorite trick there is an MMO soak. it helped my old '93 SC1 that I swapped a well used DOHC into. but it didn't do much for a friends' '00 SW2.
the issue w/ the saturn 1.9 is no oil holes in the pistons. the rings get stuck in the ring lands of the pistons. a MMO soak overnight tends to loosen up the rings. I think if I had an S series again, I would go w/ auto-rx.
another contributing factor w/ saturns oil consumption is the PCV. only the OEM one works well.
most saturn owners are too cheap for syn, and just use whatever they can get, since it doesn't seem to stay in there that long anyway. if you get the consumption issue sorted out, syn would be fine.
mpvue, I am member 01sl1saturn at saturnfans.com
That's my dilemma. I'd like to use synthetic but I don't see the point if it burns it away. However, synthetic isn't too expensive, so it pains me to pass it off.
Maybe I could just use dino, and then with the $10 I save every oil change, put that money toward a bottle of Auto-Rx and use that once every other year.
That's my dilemma. I'd like to use synthetic but I don't see the point if it burns it away. However, synthetic isn't too expensive, so it pains me to pass it off.
Maybe I could just use dino, and then with the $10 I save every oil change, put that money toward a bottle of Auto-Rx and use that once every other year.
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JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: BearZDefect
JMH, I didn't know using M1 results in half the timing chain wear compared to conventional oil. I've seen here on BITOG thinking that using M1 results in greater cam wear. I know these are two different components, but could you help me understand? And your comment seems to generalize about synthetics, or is it only M1? Thanks!
It was a long-term test of MB diesel engines, well known for longevity and superior lifecycle performance. Effectively the longest lasting cars on the road, bar none.
A lare number of cars were changed to M1 synthetic, and over what amounted to hundreds of thousands of real-world miles, timing chain wear (very easy to check on MB diesels, between a mark on the cam tower and a series of marks on the harmonic balancer) rate was halved compared to when standard HDEOs were used.
I cannot say what it wouldbe attributed to. M1 would have an API CF add pack, good enough for diesels of that vintage, but not nearly as good as any HDEO, especially in the area of soot dispersion, which is the main cause of chain wear. Plus, if a syn HDEO was used, I can only imagine the results would be better. THe earlier MB engines loaded soot a lot faster than the newer ones, as much as 0.7% in 3000 miles. They had an EGR and bypass, but were also more or less late 1960s/early 1970s technology.
All in all, take everything with a grain of salt. Take my anecdotal evidence with as much salt as anything else... the best oil for YOUR application and driving style is the one that gives the best UOA. And as much as folks like to bash M1, syntec, amsoil, etc., there still are best apps for all, and they are all still very top notch oils in some applications...
Good luck,
JMH
JMH, I didn't know using M1 results in half the timing chain wear compared to conventional oil. I've seen here on BITOG thinking that using M1 results in greater cam wear. I know these are two different components, but could you help me understand? And your comment seems to generalize about synthetics, or is it only M1? Thanks!
It was a long-term test of MB diesel engines, well known for longevity and superior lifecycle performance. Effectively the longest lasting cars on the road, bar none.
A lare number of cars were changed to M1 synthetic, and over what amounted to hundreds of thousands of real-world miles, timing chain wear (very easy to check on MB diesels, between a mark on the cam tower and a series of marks on the harmonic balancer) rate was halved compared to when standard HDEOs were used.
I cannot say what it wouldbe attributed to. M1 would have an API CF add pack, good enough for diesels of that vintage, but not nearly as good as any HDEO, especially in the area of soot dispersion, which is the main cause of chain wear. Plus, if a syn HDEO was used, I can only imagine the results would be better. THe earlier MB engines loaded soot a lot faster than the newer ones, as much as 0.7% in 3000 miles. They had an EGR and bypass, but were also more or less late 1960s/early 1970s technology.
All in all, take everything with a grain of salt. Take my anecdotal evidence with as much salt as anything else... the best oil for YOUR application and driving style is the one that gives the best UOA. And as much as folks like to bash M1, syntec, amsoil, etc., there still are best apps for all, and they are all still very top notch oils in some applications...
Good luck,
JMH
Thanks for the details, JHM.
I do take everything with a grain of salt, and realize there are too many variables to generalize without care. I didn't take your original post wrong, but was curious about the background.
I do take everything with a grain of salt, and realize there are too many variables to generalize without care. I didn't take your original post wrong, but was curious about the background.
I've read a lot of posts over the years from guys saying that they're either having consumption issues, increased UOA wear numbers, or are having noise issues with Mobil 1 5w30; I can't understand why people keep using the stuff.
JHZR2
Staff member
read the whole thing. he consumption goes away. Increased UOA numbers? not in our experience of rigorous UOA in 9 cars, all put on M1 somewhere between new and 200k miles. More noise? Such a subjective thing that it is completely non-valid without an actual test.
For some apps there may be a better solution. Depends on the platform and user.
JMH
For some apps there may be a better solution. Depends on the platform and user.
JMH
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