Bridgestone RE960

Status
Not open for further replies.
Quote:


As noted above, like you, I live in Portland (in my case, actually in the city itself, but at an altitude of about 750 feet above downtown). At the end of April 2006, I purchased a new car that came with all season tires, and I drove them through the summer, under which conditions they were competent. But with the Portland winter rains approaching last October, I swapped the all season tires off the car and fitted three-season tires instead. In the few times I had driven the all season tires in the rain between April and October, I had experienced how loosey-goosey the all season tires were on wet pavement. The three-season tires I fitted in their place are orders of magnitude superior to the all season tires when the pavement is wet.



That sounds more like the possibility of a pathetic OEM-spec tire (designed for low rolling resistance and sold cheap to the carmaker) rather than an indictment of all-season tires in general.

My WRX came with the infamous Bridgestone Potenza RE92 tires that are OEM in so many "performance car" applications. They're horrible in rain, but the Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S and my current RE960AS were much better in wet conditions.

I have my experience with 3 season rubber, including the Pirelli P6000, Dunlop SP Sport 9000, and Yokohama AVS ES100. All decent tires. Generally reasonable wear (don't know about the Yokos as they were stolen early). However - they don't completely blow away the best all-season tires when it came to wet weather traction.
 
Okay, I just drove from Portland to Tillamook on the coast. It's a two lane highway that goes through the Coast Range mountains, about 140 miles roundtrip. The rain was coming down in sheets. There was a lot of standing water on the road.

I could care less if the RE960's aren't a three season tire. These tires handle the standing water like a champ. I had total control of my car on every turn and bend in the rain. The tires didn't break loose not one time. They shead the water just fine for a All-Season tire. I would recommend these to anybody looking for a good rain tire.
 
I just picked up these tires after having the RE950s for the past three years and they handle just as well as the RE950s did in the rain. I kind of wish it would rain more here in N. California so I could test them out a bit more.
 
Quote:


I just picked up these tires after having the RE950s for the past three years and they handle just as well as the RE950s did in the rain. I kind of wish it would rain more here in N. California so I could test them out a bit more.




What type of car? Also, how would you compare the differences in these 2 tires?
 
Quote:


What type of car? Also, how would you compare the differences in these 2 tires?




I have them on my '96 Camaro. Honestly, I can't tell any difference between my old RE950s and the new RE960s. I'm happy about this since I was very happy with my RE950s.

We finally have some rain in the Bay Area and these tires sliced through some heavy standing water with no problems.
 
Quote:


Quote:


What type of car? Also, how would you compare the differences in these 2 tires?




I have them on my '96 Camaro. Honestly, I can't tell any difference between my old RE950s and the new RE960s. I'm happy about this since I was very happy with my RE950s.

We finally have some rain in the Bay Area and these tires sliced through some heavy standing water with no problems.



I took 'em to Yosemite, where it was snowing and there were R2 chain conditions much of the time. My '04 WRX felt halfway decent in light snow with them.

I will say I'm not an experienced snow driver. I did take a left turn a bit too fast and plowed into a small snow bank with no damage. With that lesson learned, it was more inspiring than the Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S tires I had before (with a full tread). As long as I kept it about 25 MPH (the chain condition speed limit) I never lost grip and could take normal turns fairly well. I even tried going into some 3 ft deep unplowed snow, and it was interesting sliding around like I was piloting a boat. I also couldn't get the hang of backing up into a couple of feet of fresh snow. I stalled a few times, since there wasn't that much room to maneuver, and I didn't want to crash into the cars on the other side of the parking lot.

I took the scenic route back home (California Hwy 49) all the way from Oakhurst to Angels Camp before heading home. There were a lot of twisties and the roads were at least damp (up to very wet) all the way. I didn't manage to break them loose, although self-preservation did creep in with the steep cliffs to the sides. I couldn't figure out why I saw so many CalTrans or county snowplows (maybe 3-4) from Oakhurst to Sonora when I didn't see any snow at all.
 
Quote:


My WRX came with the infamous Bridgestone Potenza RE92 tires that are OEM in so many "performance car" applications. They're horrible in rain, but the Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S and my current RE960AS were much better in wet conditions.

I have my experience with 3 season rubber, including the Pirelli P6000, Dunlop SP Sport 9000, and Yokohama AVS ES100. All decent tires. Generally reasonable wear (don't know about the Yokos as they were stolen early). However - they don't completely blow away the best all-season tires when it came to wet weather traction.


How do the RE960's compare to the PZero Nero M+S? I have the Pirelli's on my WRX now and they're great. But I'll be due for new tires soon and I've been considering the Bridgestones.
 
Quote:


Quote:


What type of car? Also, how would you compare the differences in these 2 tires?




I have them on my '96 Camaro. Honestly, I can't tell any difference between my old RE950s and the new RE960s. I'm happy about this since I was very happy with my RE950s.

We finally have some rain in the Bay Area and these tires sliced through some heavy standing water with no problems.




Is it an LT1 (V-8)? Did you ever have it in cold (< 30* F), DRY weather with the 960s on it? If so, how were they in those conditions?
 
I just purchased the RE960 for my WRX wagon and find them great in snow and so far in dry(10F-35F).
 
I am debating whether I should go for RE960 or Sumitomo HTR200 (summer, but not ultra high performance). Don't think I will ever use it in snow, but want the best wet and dry traction and comfortable ride. Application is 195-60-14, and HTR200 is $45 rather than $69 each for me from tirerack.

What's better for me?
 
Quote:


Quote:


My WRX came with the infamous Bridgestone Potenza RE92 tires that are OEM in so many "performance car" applications. They're horrible in rain, but the Pirelli P Zero Nero M+S and my current RE960AS were much better in wet conditions.

I have my experience with 3 season rubber, including the Pirelli P6000, Dunlop SP Sport 9000, and Yokohama AVS ES100. All decent tires. Generally reasonable wear (don't know about the Yokos as they were stolen early). However - they don't completely blow away the best all-season tires when it came to wet weather traction.


How do the RE960's compare to the PZero Nero M+S? I have the Pirelli's on my WRX now and they're great. But I'll be due for new tires soon and I've been considering the Bridgestones.



The Pirellis were a better tire on dry pavement. However - my WRX wore them down on the inside shoulders after about 20K miles. There was plenty of tread on the outsides. Part of it may have been not rotating them for about 8K miles, and another could have been total toe that was high but within factory tolerances.

The RE960 is pretty good in the rain so far. And for light snow I thought it was way better than the P Zero Nero M+S. The Pirellis just don't have a tread pattern that holds onto much snow in the sipes and between tread blocks.
 
Thanks y_p_w. I am experiencing the same issue with wear on the inside tread and have hear reports that it is a frequent problem with the Pirellis. I think I'll go with the 960's next time.
 
Quote:


I am debating whether I should go for RE960 or Sumitomo HTR200




I have Sumitomo HTR200 and i wouldn't buy them again. i'm gonna try re960 next. they're a lot more expensive but you get what you pay for.
 
Quote:


Is it an LT1 (V-8)? Did you ever have it in cold (< 30* F), DRY weather with the 960s on it? If so, how were they in those conditions?




Yes, it is an LT1. It hasn't gotten really cold here for me to answer your question. With my 950s, when it got that cold, I'd just drive a little easy until they warmed up a bit.
 
Quote:


Okay, I just drove from Portland to Tillamook on the coast. It's a two lane highway that goes through the Coast Range mountains, about 140 miles roundtrip. The rain was coming down in sheets. There was a lot of standing water on the road.

I could care less if the RE960's aren't a three season tire. These tires handle the standing water like a champ. I had total control of my car on every turn and bend in the rain. The tires didn't break loose not one time. They shead the water just fine for a All-Season tire. I would recommend these to anybody looking for a good rain tire.



Finklejag, I think you are conflating two different concepts: wet traction (the ability to brake on pavement that is wet, but not necessarily with standing water) and hydroplaning (the tendency for a tire to ride atop a "bow wave" of water pushed ahead of it).

The hydroplaning problem is, first and foremost, a matter of speed. Even a racing slick will not hydroplane at low speed. But there is no tire in the world that will not hydroplane at high speed if there is a couple of centimeters of water depth on the road surface.

Secondarily, the hydroplaning issue is one of tread design: the greater the proportion of voids to blocks (the "sea-to-land ratio") and the greater depth of the grooves, the less a tire will hydroplane -- wihin limits. As noted, at speed, and with sufficient depth of water on the road surface, all tires will hydroplane. Even at moderate speeds, a worn-down tire with little tread depth will hydroplane.

Wet traction, in contrast, relates to the coefficient of friction between the tread compound and the pavement. A "softer" tread compound will usually be "stickier" on pavement than a harder tread compound, so there is (generally) a reverse correlation between tires designed for long tread life (hard rubber for long wear) and good braking traction: it is a compromise and a choice that faces the designers of the tire, and eventually the consumer deciding between safety and economy.

The additional factor thrown in by the compounds used in so-called all-season tires is that they are chemically designed to retain water rather than shed it, in order that the tire may have some starting traction on snow. This feature, useful for "go" on snow, is counter-indicated for "stop" on wet. The water that is retained between the surface of the tread and the surface of the pavement serves as a lubricant separating the tire from the pavement, and compromises friction. Wet pavement is not defective snow: it is an engineering challenge just the opposite of gaining traction on snow.

The experience you describe on your trip down Oregon 6 to Tillamook relates to the resistance to hydroplaning that a brand-new set of RE960's will exhibit due to their relatively aggressive (high void) tread design and still-deep grooves. But when you need to make an emergency stop on wet pavement, that aspect of the chemical composition of the RE960's tread that allows it to be labeled an all-season tire will not be your ally.
 
Quote:


The experience you describe on your trip down Oregon 6 to Tillamook relates to the resistance to hydroplaning that a brand-new set of RE960's will exhibit due to their relatively aggressive (high void) tread design and still-deep grooves. But when you need to make an emergency stop on wet pavement, that aspect of the chemical composition of the RE960's tread that allows it to be labeled an all-season tire will not be your ally.



My experience is that the RE960AS is a pretty darn good tire for handling and braking in wet conditions that are short of hydroplaning. It may not be as good as **some** 3-season tires in the wet, but it's a pretty good overall tire when it comes to a balance of dry traction, wet traction, tread life, noise, and ride comfort. Its snow/ice traction is also state of the art in the all-season tire category. It gives up quite a bit of dry traction compared to 3-season tires, but that's a decent tradeoff given its wet weather peformance and value. I suspect that they somehow engineered the better wet/snow performance out of the tire with a tradeoff of dry weather performance; that's fine with me.

On the same type of test vehicle (2006 BMW E90 325i Sedan of which they have four) about a month apart, the Tire Rack managed to get better wet stopping distances out of the RE960AS than four different "summer" (read: "3-season") tires in the 225/45R17 size. GC4lunch is talking about generalities. Here we have actual testing results. The considerably better dry traction (in handling and braking results) of 3-season tires is to be expected, as that's the area where most tire manufacturers tune their 3-season tires for best performance. While there may be slight differences due to testing conditions, I don't think it's enough to discount that the RE960AS is a superior wet traction tire that's at least as good as many 3-season tires in that area. I had a lot of fun riding them through the twisties in the rain a couple of weeks ago.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=71
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=72

Here's the wet pavement 50-0 MPH results they got:

April 12, 2006:

Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS Pole Position: 87.1 ft

May 10, 2006:

BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KD: 98.1 ft
Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R: 92.1 ft
KUMHO ECSTA MX: 104.5 ft
Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD07: 91.6 ft
 
Quote:



On the same type of test vehicle (2006 BMW E90 325i Sedan of which they have four) about a month apart, the Tire Rack managed to get better wet stopping distances out of the RE960AS than four different "summer" (read: "3-season") tires in the 225/45R17 size.



Erm . . . no. You have misread the Tire Rack test. The "summer" tires you refer to (and which Tire Rack tested in the tests you cite to) are most definitely not 3-season tires. They fall into the category that Tire Rack calls "Extreme Performance Summer Tires" (different from Ultra High Performance or Maximum Performance). Here is Tire Rack's own definition of this specialized category:

Quote:


You want extreme dry street performance and are willing to trade some comfort and hydroplaning resistance to get it.

Not intended to be driven in snow or on ice, or at high speeds in deep standing water, these specially tuned tires combine big-block tread designs with aggressive tread compounds and reinforced internal constructions to emphasize dry road response, traction, handling and high speed capabilities for serious driving enthusiasts.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/types/extremeperf.jsp




Quote:


GC4lunch is talking about generalities. Here we have actual testing results.




But in the bunch you refer to, there was not one single 3-season tire, your assertion to the contrary notwithstanding.

Quote:



http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=71

BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KD: 98.1 ft
Bridgestone Potenza RE-01R: 92.1 ft
KUMHO ECSTA MX: 104.5 ft
Yokohama ADVAN Neova AD07: 91.6 ft




For instance, look at the first tire in that listing, the BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KD. You do know that the "KD" in that designation means "killer dry" don't you? That's "dry": D-R-Y.

Quote:


The g-Force T/A KD is designed to deliver BFGoodrich's Traction/Advantage to increase the performance capabilities of sports cars, sports coupes and performance sedans by providing remarkable dry road performance (hence the "D" in KD) . . ..
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=g-Force+T/A+KD




Car and Driver, in its comprehensive test published in the December 2005 issue, said the same thing:

Quote:


On a wet road, the g-Force is not so forgiving. Once you venture past the limits of adhesion and the tire begins to slide, you get a spooky feeling that resembles driving on ice, that is, you slide for a while before the tire regains grip. Geswein called the g-Force's wet-weather performance "not good" and "easy to overdrive in the wet." It finished last in two out of three wet-track tests.

This result was not a surprise because printed on the side of this tire are the letters "KD," which company employees told us stand for "killer dry."

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/10252/tire-test-the-quick-and-the-tread-page4.html



The Tire Rack "Extreme Performance" category is limited to tires optimized for dry conditions; it is not news that those tires do no better in the wet than tires designed to stick to snow do. Note that BFGoodrich makes another tire the model designation of which differs from the designation of the tire above by one letter:

Quote:


The BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW-2 (KDW for Key feature: Dry and Wet traction, the “2” is our addition and identifies that this is the second generation g-Force T/A KDW) is the Ultra High Performance Summer tire that was developed to provide a blend of a dramatic-looking, ultra high performance tread design with superior dry and wet road performance.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=g-Force+T/A+KDW+2




Tire Rack has tested the KDW, but on a different car (Lexus IS) with a different wheel and tire size, and on a different date, so no meaningful comparison can be made between the tests of the KDW and the KD, much less between the KDW and the Bridgestone RE960AS.

Tire Rack's test of the Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS Pole Position to which you provided the URL was a test of four all-season tires against each other, which is a fair test. But you cannot extract the numbers from a test by one set of test engineers under the conditions on one date and weather conditions on a specific vehicle and compare them one-on-one with the results on another vehicle in a different size on another date with different weather conditions and different test engineers.

(Because the OEM Tire on the BMW that Tire Rack uses is a Goodyear RS-A, you can find by digging deep on the Tire Rack site a lot of tests of the RS-A compared to other all-season tires. The RS-A comes out with different results in different tests.)

The fact is, the goals of making a tire stick to snow and making a tire stop as well as possible on wet pavement are opposing goals: a compromise is made for every tire, and the more the tire is designed to stick to the snow the less it will stick to wet pavement. You must take something from the right pocket in order to put something in the left pocket. It is as if you were heading north on Interstate 55 in St. Louis, and you were choosing whether to go to San Francisco or to go to New York. Both are fine destinations, but you must choose whether to turn west or to turn east; you cannot (as Robert Frost said) take both roads and remain one traveler.

I know that, like Lucy van Pelt, you want it all now, but compromises are made in each and every tire design, and the compromise that must be made to give a tire snow traction inevitably degrades wet braking.
 
Quote:


Erm . . . no. You have misread the Tire Rack test. The "summer" tires you refer to (and which Tire Rack tested in the tests you cite to) are most definitely not 3-season tires. They fall into the category that Tire Rack calls "Extreme Performance Summer Tires" (different from Ultra High Performance or Maximum Performance). Here is Tire Rack's own definition of this specialized category:

Quote:


You want extreme dry street performance and are willing to trade some comfort and hydroplaning resistance to get it.

Not intended to be driven in snow or on ice, or at high speeds in deep standing water, these specially tuned tires combine big-block tread designs with aggressive tread compounds and reinforced internal constructions to emphasize dry road response, traction, handling and high speed capabilities for serious driving enthusiasts.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/types/extremeperf.jsp






They have a sprinkler system to simulate wet conditions. They hardly flood the track such that hydroplaning becomes an issue. And aren't you the one who normally says hydroplaning shouldn't be an issue with modern crowned streets and highways?

Quote:


Quote:


GC4lunch is talking about generalities. Here we have actual testing results.




But in the bunch you refer to, there was not one single 3-season tire, your assertion to the contrary notwithstanding.



OK then. How about TR's other tests. A simple look at these tires in the "Ultra High Performance Summer" category shows that they have directional treads designed to evacuate water. Regardless - these pretty much are the "3-season tires" you speak about, not matter how they're marketed. Granted the conditions were likely different, but that only shows that those effects are more important than a simple distinction between 3-season/summer/all-season marketing strategy.

Ultra High Performance Summer (same car and tire size) on June 21, 2006:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=78

Wet 50-0 MPH braking:

AVON Tech M500: 114.4 ft
BFGoodrich g-Force Sport: 133.9 ft
Dunlop Direzza DZ101: 140.9 ft
Fuzion ZRi: 106.6 ft

Of course there are compromises. The RE960AS isn't a world beater in dry conditions compared to other tires in its ultra high-performance A/S category. However - the one thing it does really well is wet traction. Bridgestone claims its tread design does a lot to improve wet weather traction, which is excellent. I can speak from driving it in twisties on California Hwy 49 from Oakhurst to Angels Camp while it was raining, including the occasional hard braking. It was also adequate driving in Yosemite on Wawona Road and Glacier Point Road (to Badger Pass) on a couple of inches of snow.
 
I bought RE950 when they came out for my brand-new 2002 A4. Nice handling tire, but almost made me total my car in the first snow. Let me be clear, the a/s abilities of the Potenza RE950 were downright DANGEROUS. I'm soured from any Bridgestone purchases since.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom