You don't need the one man bleeder if your GF can push the brakes. Just have her push all the way down and hold. Then tighten the valve and have her release. This is the best way since it will force the fluid out.
Brake Flush Methods
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Some folks who are very particular about brake bleeding in performance car circles give several pieces of advice:
1. the wood under the brake pedal is a good practice
2. two-man bleeding using the brake pedal is the only proper way to bleed perfectly. Little bubbles like to cling and hide in the braking system and the combination of full pressure from the brake pedal and the surge of cracking the bleeder open and shut dislodge them. Some will actually bleed with a series of open/shut on the bleeder in the same pedal stroke. Might-vac and other low pressure/high flow systems will freshen the fluid and are simple to use and good maintenance, but can leave some bubbles behind. This means your brake pedal won't be as firm as it could be.
3. tap the caliper with a mallet a couple of times before opening the bleeder, this helps to dislodge bubbles and crud so that they can be swept out the bleeder.
1. the wood under the brake pedal is a good practice
2. two-man bleeding using the brake pedal is the only proper way to bleed perfectly. Little bubbles like to cling and hide in the braking system and the combination of full pressure from the brake pedal and the surge of cracking the bleeder open and shut dislodge them. Some will actually bleed with a series of open/shut on the bleeder in the same pedal stroke. Might-vac and other low pressure/high flow systems will freshen the fluid and are simple to use and good maintenance, but can leave some bubbles behind. This means your brake pedal won't be as firm as it could be.
3. tap the caliper with a mallet a couple of times before opening the bleeder, this helps to dislodge bubbles and crud so that they can be swept out the bleeder.
If the calipers are 11 years old, you're going to have a helluva time getting the bleeder screws loose without destroying them, penetrating oil or not. I'd seriously consider getting rebuilt calipers. They're relatively cheap ($20 ea. for my '00 Monte Carlo) and will address any concerns about calipers freezing up and aging rubber parts.
Matt makes a good point. When I worked in a brake shop, people frequently drug in calipers with busted bleed screws. The old coot that owned the shop really griped about the ones with broken off ''Easy Outs'' in them. He maintained there was no such thing as an Easy Out. There are ways of getting bleed screws out in one piece. I would start by pulling on each one with a 1/4'' drive socket or box wrench. If it doesn't come, don't try pulling harder. Try a few raps with a hammer right on the end of the screw. If they won't all yield to that, put off the project. As I said, just wait until you need new lining, and rebuild/repair the calipers. Once off the car and dissembled on the bench, you can heat the bleed screws with a torch to loosen them. It is much easier to get them loose before you break them off than after.
Have you or anybody you know ever completely lost brake pedal because the fluid boiled? How much work do you want to go through to prevent something that almost never happens? Usually if over used, the pads fade long before the fluid is hot enough to boil.
Have you or anybody you know ever completely lost brake pedal because the fluid boiled? How much work do you want to go through to prevent something that almost never happens? Usually if over used, the pads fade long before the fluid is hot enough to boil.
It isn't the hard pumping that can damage the seals in a MC, but the long stroke to the bottom of the MC bore, where the seal may encounter burrs or debris.
If you close the bleeder nipple during the pedal's downward travel and slightly before it reaches the bottom, you won't suck air in when the pedal stops and rebounds, and you'll also prevent the seal reaching the bottom of the bore.
Brake fluid should be replaced at least every three years. Moisture absorption aside, the anti-oxidation additives do wear out.
I use a Mity-Vac when I bleed brakes, but I used to use the push-the-pedal method with good results. I am having a little difficulty imagining the gravity bleed method on the whole system, as all four wheels would have to be off at the same time, right?
Alright, well, judging from a lot of the opinions on here, which are all greatly appreciated, would it just be better for me to siphon some out of the master cylinder and replace that?
I have read up on almost all the brake flush questions here, and some said that since the fluid is hydroscopic, it will absorb some moisture throughout the whole system. That's a logical alternative. Any arguments against that?
It seems to be much less of a hassle than doing a complete flush. I can just do that once every couple of weeks for a few months until the fluid starts to stay looking new. Once again people, I appreciate all the help, but I do understand that there is a possibility of the parts being worn out and needing replacement, I'll definitely check them the next time I change the brake pads.
I have read up on almost all the brake flush questions here, and some said that since the fluid is hydroscopic, it will absorb some moisture throughout the whole system. That's a logical alternative. Any arguments against that?
It seems to be much less of a hassle than doing a complete flush. I can just do that once every couple of weeks for a few months until the fluid starts to stay looking new. Once again people, I appreciate all the help, but I do understand that there is a possibility of the parts being worn out and needing replacement, I'll definitely check them the next time I change the brake pads.
That does nothing for the worst fluid down in the calipers. Next time you have the wheels off, see how tight the bleed screws are after you spray them with your favorite penetrating oil. If the dust cap is intact and the car hasn't seen salt, you'll probably be able to loosen them.
When I did a gravity bleed, I did it one wheel at a time, and as I recall I was able to reach the bleeder screw on the front wheels without taking them off...
The dust cap is still on all of the bleed screws, and Georgia doesn't get much salt on the road, or at least not where I'm out. I'll spray them with some PB Blaster before, I planned on that.
I think just doing the turkey baster thing is of some benefit, but in your case, it's not going to make a world of difference. (Then again, why not?) Couple threads:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=002644#000000
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001888
As for the bleed screws, hose em down with something and give it a shot. Worst that can happen is they break off and you have to replace the caliper when you work on the rest of it!
[ April 11, 2006, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: johnsmith ]
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=002644#000000
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001888
As for the bleed screws, hose em down with something and give it a shot. Worst that can happen is they break off and you have to replace the caliper when you work on the rest of it!
[ April 11, 2006, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: johnsmith ]
No real mechanic busts stuff.
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It's not necessary to "lose the brake pedal" completely in order to get hurt, to die or to kill.
Oh, I don't know, 30 minutes seems like a small effort that I don't consider a waste of time -- even if the procedure is aimed at preventing something that, according to you, "almost never happens." People get almost never hit by lighting all the time.
Flatlander.
In gravity bleed there is no need for any of the wheels to be off unless you have very difficult bleeder screws to reach. I seldom use the gravity method, but sometimes it works when nothing else does.
Gravity bleed? How hard is it to recruit a friend or a neighbor to push the pedal and bleed the lines?
I just did my wife's front brakes and replaced the fluid this last weekend. It only cost me materials, labor for cutting the rotors and two Becks I gave with my neighbor as he pushed the break pedal.
I just did my wife's front brakes and replaced the fluid this last weekend. It only cost me materials, labor for cutting the rotors and two Becks I gave with my neighbor as he pushed the break pedal.
I have heard good things about Motive Products Bleeders. I bought the UNIVERSAL POWER BLEEDER, but haven't had a chance to use it yet. I also bought synthetic brake fluid (ATE Super Blue Racing fluid). Suppose to be less hygroscopic and a much higher boiling point.
turkey baster to empty the mc and refill with fresh fluid.open all 4 bleeders and let gravity do the work.avoids possible mc damage from overtravel.dont let it go empty!
run a qt of fluid thru the system.i do this once every year or if i have to open the system.
run a qt of fluid thru the system.i do this once every year or if i have to open the system.
when pads fade, its one of two things: 1) the pads are 'green' that is to say that they have not been bedded/burnished completely. 2)the pads are operating out of their temp range
when i experience pad fade auto-xing my civic using hawk hps pads, i know its the pads. late braking is your friend; many feel that the longer you are on the brakes the less time the pads have to cool between applications. if you brake hard and later, you are on the brakes less so they have more recovery time. the pedal requires more stroke to achieve the same braking when the pads are too hot, it also gets 'softer'. i plan to upgrade to carbotech panther+ or bobcats or try out cobalt friction GT Sports. stock pads fade so quickly its not even funny. i use fairly good fluid, valvoline (though ford has a higher dry boil point, valvoline has a better wet point and is less hygroscopic than ford fluid), and ocassionaly ate super blue/typ200.
With the gravity bleed method, there is no chance of air getting in the system?
I don't see how any could since you wouldn't be applying any pressure to the system so it could suck air back in.
I don't see how any could since you wouldn't be applying any pressure to the system so it could suck air back in.
CT..
You will love the Motive if you get it. A bleed takes about 15 minutes, is one man, clean, and effective. Fill the Motive with the fluid of your choice. I like ATE. It comes in 2 flavors, blue and gold, and I swap with each bleed. Attach the Motive to the master cylinder, and pump it up to about 6 pounds. Go to the wheel cylinder located the farthest away, (RR). Attach a small piece of aquarium tubing to the bleed screw, and put it in a container. When you see a color change, you know that line is flushed, and bled. Do the LR, RF, and LF the same way, and you are good to go. If you only use gold or clear fluids, you can still see a change, it is just more subtle, and you have to watch for it. The Motive comes with a clamp on cap for either import or domestic, but a boneyard run will net you any top you need, and a little creative drilling and a nylon barb from a hardware store, and you can fit whatever car you are servicing.
The local Meineke took a 1 gallon can of fluid and made their own bleed system by sweating a schraeder valve to the top of the can, and a barb and tubing to the lid. They have several master cylinder tops, and pressurize the can with compressed air and a regulator. I would think a tire valve for an aluminum wheel,(the kind that has a nut, and compresses two rubber washers) would work also for a homemade version.
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The Motive pressure bleeder works fine. It works even better if combined with pumping the brake pedal.
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