Brake Fluid DOT 3

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Originally Posted by painfx
Would the Toyota Brake Fluid DOT 3 be better than the aftermarket brands?

Absolutely not. Actually whole braking system on Toyota is mediocre at best!
 
Originally Posted by BHopkins
AC1DD said:
This is totally contrary to every DOT 3 and DOT 4 spec I have read. Everything says DOT 3 and DOT4 are 100% compatible, and that DOT 4 can be used anywhere DOT 3 is specified.

Can you show any articles or specifications that say DOT 4 shouldn't be used in any particular application where DOT 3 is specified?

These StopTech white papers are the only place I have read about the "possible" negative effects of Dot 4 borates in DOT 3 systems. These articles also throw out the ideas that boiling points drop off faster with DOT 4 and more frequent changes are recommended.

https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedi...ic-White-Paper-D5-Brake-Fluid-Basics.pdf

And this one: https://www.apcautotech.com/getmedia/026dfcc4-906a-4f74-961d-4df6123cdca8/brake-fluid.pdf

"A seldom talked about characteristic though is that because of this chemistry, the DOT 4 fluid will have a more stable and higher boiling point during the early portion of its life, but ironically once the fluid does actually begin to absorb water its boiling point will typically fall off more rapidly than a typical DOT 3. "

"Does this make DOT 4 fluids better than DOT 3 fluids? Not always. Remember, the boiling points listed are minimums and there are DOT 3 fluids out there with higher boiling points than some DOT 4 fluids. The real differentiating factor should be that if you run a DOT 4 fluid you really should change the fluid more often than if you use a DOT 3, if for no other reason than the rapid fall off in boiling point with time. "

"As a trailing note on the DOT ratings, if your car was designed for a particular type of fluid (especially prior to the development of DOT 4 fluids), you should make every attempt to stick with that fluid! For example, if your car was delivered with DOT 3 fluid, the internal components of the system (seals, brake hoses, and fittings for example) were specifically designed and tested for compatibility with DOT 3. Because DOT 4 fluids contain a different chemical composition, the system may not necessarily react in a positive fashion to the borate esters floating around in the mix"



"In other cases, just the difference in viscosity of the two different fluids may cause the seals to wear at different rates. What starts as an annoying squeak might eventually become a torn seal or worse. The examples could go on and on, but the message here is this: it's fine to upgrade from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 3 fluid B, but you should think twice (maybe even three times) before switching from DOT 3 fluid A to DOT 4 fluid of any sort."


Just the messenger here. StopTech doesn't paint with the broad paint brush of BITOG - that DOT 4 is always better than DOT 3.
 
Originally Posted by AC1DD
Originally Posted by doitmyself

- Borates in DOT 4 "might" damage some systems designed for DOT 3?



VERY important technical factor especially in older Japanese cars from the mid 90s and prior!

[USE ONLY DOT 3 IN THOSE VEHICLES WHEN THE MANUAL SPECIFICALLY CALLS FOR DOT 3!!!!!

Using DOT 4 may destroy the rubber seals which were NOT DESIGNED to be subject to Borates.

The Japanese DOT 3 fluids do use borate esters - but the fluid formulation is slightly different than a DOT 4. I recall seeing a brochure Toyota put out in the 1990s saying that their stuff does use borate esters. They also claim a "polymer lubricant" in their OEM fill and labelled fluids as well. CCI makes those fluids.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/toyota-dot-3-brake-fluid-composition.429173/

However, like I said - Honda and Toyota did have problems with master cylinder seals. They do recommend using their fluid of course, but I've used DOT 4 Castrol GT LMA. ATE Type 200/Super Fluid and Pentosin with no issue. I think a German DOT 4 is far superior to American DOT fluids, save for Japanese fill.
https://www.lexus.com/recall/pdf/Brake_Master_Cylinder_Seal_Recall.pdf
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2010/RCRIT-10V504-8146.pdf
 
Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by AC1DD
Originally Posted by doitmyself

- Borates in DOT 4 "might" damage some systems designed for DOT 3?



VERY important technical factor especially in older Japanese cars from the mid 90s and prior!

[USE ONLY DOT 3 IN THOSE VEHICLES WHEN THE MANUAL SPECIFICALLY CALLS FOR DOT 3!!!!!

Using DOT 4 may destroy the rubber seals which were NOT DESIGNED to be subject to Borates.

The Japanese DOT 3 fluids do use borate esters - but the fluid formulation is slightly different than a DOT 4. I recall seeing a brochure Toyota put out in the 1990s saying that their stuff does use borate esters. They also claim a "polymer lubricant" in their OEM fill and labelled fluids as well. CCI makes those fluids.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/toyota-dot-3-brake-fluid-composition.429173/

However, like I said - Honda and Toyota did have problems with master cylinder seals. They do recommend using their fluid of course, but I've used DOT 4 Castrol GT LMA. ATE Type 200/Super Fluid and Pentosin with no issue. I think a German DOT 4 is far superior to American DOT fluids, save for Japanese fill.
https://www.lexus.com/recall/pdf/Brake_Master_Cylinder_Seal_Recall.pdf
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2010/RCRIT-10V504-8146.pdf

Like 20+ years ago?
 
Originally Posted by painfx
Would the Toyota Brake Fluid DOT 3 be better than the aftermarket brands?
I don't believe so. That opinion based on long anecdotal experience with aftermarket Dot 3 in an older (01) Tacoma 3.4L. Same goes for Honda aftermarket DOT3 use in a couple of applications, one with ~300k miles. Never used oem BF in either, never an issue. Just normal brake fluid exchange maintenance.

I don't consider a couple tsb's for a few mid 2000's models (one, Acura), as evidence of aftermarket BF being inferior to Toyota or Honda.

One has to decide if the name on the bottle is worth the price premium over aftermarket DOT3 brands. Based on my experience, it isn't for me.
 
I say for the most part yes. Please see this old internal documentation from CCI testing the Toyota formulation against others here. CCI mixes the brake fluid for almost all the Japanese manufactures and Ford. Toyota and Subaru use the same exact formulation and in my 25 year experience rebuilding calipers, the Toyota formulation preserves the seals and the other internals the best.
 
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