I'd love nothing more than to see the Brady bunch lose the Superbowl.
Brady is the GOAT!
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Even if they did, really, so what??
Most Postseason Touchdown Passes
1. Tom Brady, 66
2. Joe Montana, 45
3. Brett Favre, 44
Most Postseason Passing Yards
1. Tom Brady, 9,431
2. Peyton Manning, 7,339
3. Brett Favre, 5,855
Most Postseason Playoff Wins by QB
1. Tom Brady, 26
2. Joe Montana, 16
T-3. Terry Bradshaw, 14
T-3. John Elway, 14
T-3. Peyton Manning, 14
Most Postseason 300-Yard Passing Games
1. Tom Brady, 13
2. Peyton Manning, 9
3. Drew Brees, 7
Most Postseason Touchdown Passes
1. Tom Brady, 66
2. Joe Montana, 45
3. Brett Favre, 44
Most Postseason Passing Yards
1. Tom Brady, 9,431
2. Peyton Manning, 7,339
3. Brett Favre, 5,855
Most Postseason Playoff Wins by QB
1. Tom Brady, 26
2. Joe Montana, 16
T-3. Terry Bradshaw, 14
T-3. John Elway, 14
T-3. Peyton Manning, 14
Most Postseason 300-Yard Passing Games
1. Tom Brady, 13
2. Peyton Manning, 9
3. Drew Brees, 7
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
..this guy claimed that Bundchen was the LEAST attractive woman in the group, at least to his eyes.
I don't really get her as a model, but she is obviously one heck of a businesswoman!
https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/d2NaJFrsAx9cW7Tn0bu9wdBKIrc/fit-in/1024x1024/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2016/04/27/793/n/1922398/db0aed87ea992b92_GettyImages-86469717/i/Gisele-B%C3%BCndchen.jpg
..this guy claimed that Bundchen was the LEAST attractive woman in the group, at least to his eyes.
I don't really get her as a model, but she is obviously one heck of a businesswoman!
https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/d2NaJFrsAx9cW7Tn0bu9wdBKIrc/fit-in/1024x1024/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2016/04/27/793/n/1922398/db0aed87ea992b92_GettyImages-86469717/i/Gisele-B%C3%BCndchen.jpg
Originally Posted By: grampi
Most of Brady's success is owed to his coach who puts a winning cast around him every year. There are better QBs. Rodgers is better, Breez is just as good, Manning was at least as good, Montana was better, Marino was better, Unites was better. Do you think Brady could've made the throw Rodgers made that basically won GB the game against Dallas last year? Brady couldn't have made that throw in his prime. Brady has never had a strong arm, has never been a good scrambler, and basically doesn't possess any of the skill sets of any of the QBs I named. He has so many SB rings because his team has been so good. If Rodgers had been playing in place of Brady, NE probably would have won every SB they've been in, and a few more...IMO Brady is a great QB, but not the GOAT, who plays for the 2nd best HC in history (behind Lombardi), who coaches the team that's been a SB caliber team almost the entire time Bilichick's been there, but GB still has the most titles (13) which still makes them the greatest team of all time...
I agree, Aaron Rodgers is a much better QB than Tom Brady. Put Brady on GB's existing squad & see what happens!!
You have Tom Landry as 3rd on your head coach list...Right? LOL!
Most of Brady's success is owed to his coach who puts a winning cast around him every year. There are better QBs. Rodgers is better, Breez is just as good, Manning was at least as good, Montana was better, Marino was better, Unites was better. Do you think Brady could've made the throw Rodgers made that basically won GB the game against Dallas last year? Brady couldn't have made that throw in his prime. Brady has never had a strong arm, has never been a good scrambler, and basically doesn't possess any of the skill sets of any of the QBs I named. He has so many SB rings because his team has been so good. If Rodgers had been playing in place of Brady, NE probably would have won every SB they've been in, and a few more...IMO Brady is a great QB, but not the GOAT, who plays for the 2nd best HC in history (behind Lombardi), who coaches the team that's been a SB caliber team almost the entire time Bilichick's been there, but GB still has the most titles (13) which still makes them the greatest team of all time...
I agree, Aaron Rodgers is a much better QB than Tom Brady. Put Brady on GB's existing squad & see what happens!!
You have Tom Landry as 3rd on your head coach list...Right? LOL!
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: grampi
Most of Brady's success is owed to his coach who puts a winning cast around him every year. There are better QBs. Rodgers is better, Breez is just as good, Manning was at least as good, Montana was better, Marino was better, Unites was better. Do you think Brady could've made the throw Rodgers made that basically won GB the game against Dallas last year? Brady couldn't have made that throw in his prime. Brady has never had a strong arm, has never been a good scrambler, and basically doesn't possess any of the skill sets of any of the QBs I named. He has so many SB rings because his team has been so good. If Rodgers had been playing in place of Brady, NE probably would have won every SB they've been in, and a few more...IMO Brady is a great QB, but not the GOAT, who plays for the 2nd best HC in history (behind Lombardi), who coaches the team that's been a SB caliber team almost the entire time Bilichick's been there, but GB still has the most titles (13) which still makes them the greatest team of all time...
I agree, Aaron Rodgers is a much better QB than Tom Brady. Put Brady on GB's existing squad & see what happens!!
You have Tom Landry as 3rd on your head coach list...Right? LOL!
Aaron Rodgers, now you're talking!
Originally Posted By: grampi
Most of Brady's success is owed to his coach who puts a winning cast around him every year. There are better QBs. Rodgers is better, Breez is just as good, Manning was at least as good, Montana was better, Marino was better, Unites was better. Do you think Brady could've made the throw Rodgers made that basically won GB the game against Dallas last year? Brady couldn't have made that throw in his prime. Brady has never had a strong arm, has never been a good scrambler, and basically doesn't possess any of the skill sets of any of the QBs I named. He has so many SB rings because his team has been so good. If Rodgers had been playing in place of Brady, NE probably would have won every SB they've been in, and a few more...IMO Brady is a great QB, but not the GOAT, who plays for the 2nd best HC in history (behind Lombardi), who coaches the team that's been a SB caliber team almost the entire time Bilichick's been there, but GB still has the most titles (13) which still makes them the greatest team of all time...
I agree, Aaron Rodgers is a much better QB than Tom Brady. Put Brady on GB's existing squad & see what happens!!
You have Tom Landry as 3rd on your head coach list...Right? LOL!
Aaron Rodgers, now you're talking!
In my strong opinion Tom Brady is better than Aaron Rogers any day of the week that ends with a y.
And everyone who says .... It's the team... It's the coach.... It's his players around him...
Well guess what... The EXACT same thing could be said of Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr etc... Those players all had good or very good players around them too. Joe Montana had good players around him the whole time while winning 4 Super Bowl games. Everyone and I mean everyone forgets that John Elway was considered a bigtime loser for much of his career. After losing 39-20 to a very good NY Giants team, then losing 42-10 to the Redskins and finally the massive loss to a great 49ers team 55-10 EVERYONE thought John Elway was a total loser. Nevermind that John Elway carried a team that was decent at best against teams that we're far better than his own. Well.... After several not good years many thought John Elway was not ever going to win a Super Bowl. Has fate would have it the Denver Broncos stumbled upon Terell Davis at RB. Him plus a much improved offensive line helped make the Denver Broncos into a real team capable of winning against the NFC's best. With a 31-24 win over the GB Packers everyone suddenly thought John Elway was a winner. Then the next season after a 34-19 win over the Atlanta Falcons no doubt was left about John Elway being a winner. So.... Was John Elway a better player in the 97-98 NFL season or just the fact that he actually had a great offensive line and a great running back to lean on helped make it possible for him to win?? John was not a "better" player than he had been in the 86-87 NFL season. It was the fact that his team had gotten much better around him over a decade later.
The team around a player, the coaches around a player certainly make a difference in how things turn out. Football is rather hard to boil down to an individual player based upon that stated reality. Many would say that Dan Marino would have been a great QB anywhere he played. And I would agree with that analysis. However, when it comes down to Tom Brady or Joe Montana many seem to struggle with thinking the same thing about them. Many like to say, "ohh it was head coach Bill Walsh or the west coast system or it's all Bill Bellichek." Well, I believe that Tom Brady or Joe Montana would likely have played well elsewhere. Joe played very well with the KC Chiefs at the very end of his career. I am not saying that coaching does it matter. It certainly does matter. And, yes it was fortuitous that Joe Montana was drafted by the 49ers and that Tom Brady was drafted by the NE Patriots. But, ultimately what made those two guys all times greats was not their head coaches, not the "systems" they played in. What made Bart Starr, Joe Montana and Tom Brady all time greats was that they understood the need to get better each year, the necessity to stay focused, the understanding that even after winning a first championship that they still needed to work hard. That's what made those guys all time great players. Not physical talents, not "great" head coaches, and not systems.
Many people may not notice this but Tom Brady was a very good passer of the football when he came into the NFL. He could locate and put the ball where it needed to be. But, he was not a good thrower of the ball. Go back and watch the games he played in his first NFL season. Then flash forward to say 5 years later. Watch how much harder and better he throws the ball then. It is a big difference. Why was that? Because he got better with his footwork, better mechanics throwing the ball and stronger physically. I saw a preseason game in 2008 where he threw a TD to Randy Moss and it was a 40 yd throw. That ball was thrown on a rope. Tom Brady could not have made that type of throw when he came into the league. But, he got a lot better at throwing the football. And yet he still maintained his passing ability while becoming a far better thrower of the football. Another player who has done this just as well... Drew Brees. Go back and watch his early games. Then watch Drew throw the football five or six years later. Same thing.
Why would I take Tom Brady over Aaron Rogers is due to performance over the same time in their careers. Tom Brady won 3/4 Super Bowl games in his first 4 years as a starter. Aaron Rogers has 1 in his first 4 years. Aaron Rogers had a 15-1 GB Packers team lose badly to a NY Giants team 44-20 I believe, at home, heavily favored and Aaron Rogers played very poorly in that game. So, in the same span of time for both of their careers I would take Tom Brady everyday all day.
Now, to be fair, having said that... Aaron Rogers is not done writing his career book so to speak. He will likely have more chances to win one,two or who knows 3 more Super Bowl games. That is certainly possible. Aaron is a tremendous player. He has won games that seemed unwinnable at times. The game in Arizona a couple of years ago certainly comes to mind. Even the win in Dallas was very impressive. Aaron can throw the ball on the run as well as anyone who's ever played in the NFL. I would say Aaron Rogers is just as good as John Elway was at that. And that is saying a whole lot. Aaron may well be right up there with Joe Montana and Tom Brady at the end of his career. We will see...
And everyone who says .... It's the team... It's the coach.... It's his players around him...
Well guess what... The EXACT same thing could be said of Joe Montana, John Elway, Dan Marino, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr etc... Those players all had good or very good players around them too. Joe Montana had good players around him the whole time while winning 4 Super Bowl games. Everyone and I mean everyone forgets that John Elway was considered a bigtime loser for much of his career. After losing 39-20 to a very good NY Giants team, then losing 42-10 to the Redskins and finally the massive loss to a great 49ers team 55-10 EVERYONE thought John Elway was a total loser. Nevermind that John Elway carried a team that was decent at best against teams that we're far better than his own. Well.... After several not good years many thought John Elway was not ever going to win a Super Bowl. Has fate would have it the Denver Broncos stumbled upon Terell Davis at RB. Him plus a much improved offensive line helped make the Denver Broncos into a real team capable of winning against the NFC's best. With a 31-24 win over the GB Packers everyone suddenly thought John Elway was a winner. Then the next season after a 34-19 win over the Atlanta Falcons no doubt was left about John Elway being a winner. So.... Was John Elway a better player in the 97-98 NFL season or just the fact that he actually had a great offensive line and a great running back to lean on helped make it possible for him to win?? John was not a "better" player than he had been in the 86-87 NFL season. It was the fact that his team had gotten much better around him over a decade later.
The team around a player, the coaches around a player certainly make a difference in how things turn out. Football is rather hard to boil down to an individual player based upon that stated reality. Many would say that Dan Marino would have been a great QB anywhere he played. And I would agree with that analysis. However, when it comes down to Tom Brady or Joe Montana many seem to struggle with thinking the same thing about them. Many like to say, "ohh it was head coach Bill Walsh or the west coast system or it's all Bill Bellichek." Well, I believe that Tom Brady or Joe Montana would likely have played well elsewhere. Joe played very well with the KC Chiefs at the very end of his career. I am not saying that coaching does it matter. It certainly does matter. And, yes it was fortuitous that Joe Montana was drafted by the 49ers and that Tom Brady was drafted by the NE Patriots. But, ultimately what made those two guys all times greats was not their head coaches, not the "systems" they played in. What made Bart Starr, Joe Montana and Tom Brady all time greats was that they understood the need to get better each year, the necessity to stay focused, the understanding that even after winning a first championship that they still needed to work hard. That's what made those guys all time great players. Not physical talents, not "great" head coaches, and not systems.
Many people may not notice this but Tom Brady was a very good passer of the football when he came into the NFL. He could locate and put the ball where it needed to be. But, he was not a good thrower of the ball. Go back and watch the games he played in his first NFL season. Then flash forward to say 5 years later. Watch how much harder and better he throws the ball then. It is a big difference. Why was that? Because he got better with his footwork, better mechanics throwing the ball and stronger physically. I saw a preseason game in 2008 where he threw a TD to Randy Moss and it was a 40 yd throw. That ball was thrown on a rope. Tom Brady could not have made that type of throw when he came into the league. But, he got a lot better at throwing the football. And yet he still maintained his passing ability while becoming a far better thrower of the football. Another player who has done this just as well... Drew Brees. Go back and watch his early games. Then watch Drew throw the football five or six years later. Same thing.
Why would I take Tom Brady over Aaron Rogers is due to performance over the same time in their careers. Tom Brady won 3/4 Super Bowl games in his first 4 years as a starter. Aaron Rogers has 1 in his first 4 years. Aaron Rogers had a 15-1 GB Packers team lose badly to a NY Giants team 44-20 I believe, at home, heavily favored and Aaron Rogers played very poorly in that game. So, in the same span of time for both of their careers I would take Tom Brady everyday all day.
Now, to be fair, having said that... Aaron Rogers is not done writing his career book so to speak. He will likely have more chances to win one,two or who knows 3 more Super Bowl games. That is certainly possible. Aaron is a tremendous player. He has won games that seemed unwinnable at times. The game in Arizona a couple of years ago certainly comes to mind. Even the win in Dallas was very impressive. Aaron can throw the ball on the run as well as anyone who's ever played in the NFL. I would say Aaron Rogers is just as good as John Elway was at that. And that is saying a whole lot. Aaron may well be right up there with Joe Montana and Tom Brady at the end of his career. We will see...
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
If Joe Montana deflated footballs he would have more Super Bowl titles than Brady....
You must not be familiar with TPMS. If you were, you would know how much weather and temperature effects air pressure.
If Joe Montana deflated footballs he would have more Super Bowl titles than Brady....
You must not be familiar with TPMS. If you were, you would know how much weather and temperature effects air pressure.
Brady injured his throwing hand at practice yesterday. Xrays negative, but he's skipping practice again today, and skipping out on the press. Uh oh..
Originally Posted By: grampi
Most of Brady's success is owed to his coach who puts a winning cast around him every year. There are better QBs. Rodgers is better, Breez is just as good, Manning was at least as good, Montana was better, Marino was better, Unites was better. Do you think Brady could've made the throw Rodgers made that basically won GB the game against Dallas last year? Brady couldn't have made that throw in his prime. Brady has never had a strong arm, has never been a good scrambler, and basically doesn't possess any of the skill sets of any of the QBs I named. He has so many SB rings because his team has been so good. If Rodgers had been playing in place of Brady, NE probably would have won every SB they've been in, and a few more...IMO Brady is a great QB, but not the GOAT, who plays for the 2nd best HC in history (behind Lombardi), who coaches the team that's been a SB caliber team almost the entire time Bilichick's been there, but GB still has the most titles (13) which still makes them the greatest team of all time...
You are so wrong.
Like Brady or not,he does more with less than any QB I have ever seen.
None of his receivers could start for most teams but he still wins.put all the bias aside and just enjoy what little time is left to see Brady play.
What he did in last years SB is amazing.
And I'm a Cowboy fan.
I remember watching Roger getting near the end and not really appreciating each game.
Just enjoy great football regardless of team
Most of Brady's success is owed to his coach who puts a winning cast around him every year. There are better QBs. Rodgers is better, Breez is just as good, Manning was at least as good, Montana was better, Marino was better, Unites was better. Do you think Brady could've made the throw Rodgers made that basically won GB the game against Dallas last year? Brady couldn't have made that throw in his prime. Brady has never had a strong arm, has never been a good scrambler, and basically doesn't possess any of the skill sets of any of the QBs I named. He has so many SB rings because his team has been so good. If Rodgers had been playing in place of Brady, NE probably would have won every SB they've been in, and a few more...IMO Brady is a great QB, but not the GOAT, who plays for the 2nd best HC in history (behind Lombardi), who coaches the team that's been a SB caliber team almost the entire time Bilichick's been there, but GB still has the most titles (13) which still makes them the greatest team of all time...
You are so wrong.
Like Brady or not,he does more with less than any QB I have ever seen.
None of his receivers could start for most teams but he still wins.put all the bias aside and just enjoy what little time is left to see Brady play.
What he did in last years SB is amazing.
And I'm a Cowboy fan.
I remember watching Roger getting near the end and not really appreciating each game.
Just enjoy great football regardless of team
Brady is now Questionable for Sunday. Hoyer took all snaps today (and yesterday)
Wow on Hoyer, he played for the Browns back in 2014 and is a local guy. Actually won a few games before being hurt and this was right around the Johnny Manziel debacle. He really wanted to play here which is rare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Hoyer
Look forward to the games!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Hoyer
Look forward to the games!
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The last thing I want from this football season is to see the Pats lose, and I don't care who beats them.
What if Brady's injury is some sorta Jedi mind trick? Now the Jaguars have to figure out plays based on Hoyer who is pretty unknown. Confusion to the enemy The interviews were classic Belichick, followed hours later by Brady wearing a grin that was so big, I was expecting him to disappear like the Cheshire Cat. Reporters left the interviews knowing less than when they came in.
Originally Posted By: Dallas69
Originally Posted By: grampi
Most of Brady's success is owed to his coach who puts a winning cast around him every year. There are better QBs. Rodgers is better, Breez is just as good, Manning was at least as good, Montana was better, Marino was better, Unites was better. Do you think Brady could've made the throw Rodgers made that basically won GB the game against Dallas last year? Brady couldn't have made that throw in his prime. Brady has never had a strong arm, has never been a good scrambler, and basically doesn't possess any of the skill sets of any of the QBs I named. He has so many SB rings because his team has been so good. If Rodgers had been playing in place of Brady, NE probably would have won every SB they've been in, and a few more...IMO Brady is a great QB, but not the GOAT, who plays for the 2nd best HC in history (behind Lombardi), who coaches the team that's been a SB caliber team almost the entire time Bilichick's been there, but GB still has the most titles (13) which still makes them the greatest team of all time...
You are so wrong.
Like Brady or not,he does more with less than any QB I have ever seen.
None of his receivers could start for most teams but he still wins.put all the bias aside and just enjoy what little time is left to see Brady play.
What he did in last years SB is amazing.
And I'm a Cowboy fan.
I remember watching Roger getting near the end and not really appreciating each game.
Just enjoy great football regardless of team
The Patriots system turned an undersized, undrafted free agent wide reciever into a superstar.
Originally Posted By: grampi
Most of Brady's success is owed to his coach who puts a winning cast around him every year. There are better QBs. Rodgers is better, Breez is just as good, Manning was at least as good, Montana was better, Marino was better, Unites was better. Do you think Brady could've made the throw Rodgers made that basically won GB the game against Dallas last year? Brady couldn't have made that throw in his prime. Brady has never had a strong arm, has never been a good scrambler, and basically doesn't possess any of the skill sets of any of the QBs I named. He has so many SB rings because his team has been so good. If Rodgers had been playing in place of Brady, NE probably would have won every SB they've been in, and a few more...IMO Brady is a great QB, but not the GOAT, who plays for the 2nd best HC in history (behind Lombardi), who coaches the team that's been a SB caliber team almost the entire time Bilichick's been there, but GB still has the most titles (13) which still makes them the greatest team of all time...
You are so wrong.
Like Brady or not,he does more with less than any QB I have ever seen.
None of his receivers could start for most teams but he still wins.put all the bias aside and just enjoy what little time is left to see Brady play.
What he did in last years SB is amazing.
And I'm a Cowboy fan.
I remember watching Roger getting near the end and not really appreciating each game.
Just enjoy great football regardless of team
The Patriots system turned an undersized, undrafted free agent wide reciever into a superstar.
....these its the system guys...
Montana had a GREAT West Coast Walsh system with a GREAT WR. Bradshaw threw to TWO HOF Wrs
Staubach ( underrated ) had a great system with very talented HOF's around him as did Aikman.
soooo Most great QBs had a system. While guys like Marino and Rodgers are great in their own right.
The ability to think quickly and decisively followed by an athletic throw or run while 300 lb manimals are attempting to SLAM you into the earth makes this the toughest position to play and produce in all of sport.
With Bradys winning record, super bowls and individual yardage records etc. clearly makes him the GOAT of this generation.
Montana had a GREAT West Coast Walsh system with a GREAT WR. Bradshaw threw to TWO HOF Wrs
Staubach ( underrated ) had a great system with very talented HOF's around him as did Aikman.
soooo Most great QBs had a system. While guys like Marino and Rodgers are great in their own right.
The ability to think quickly and decisively followed by an athletic throw or run while 300 lb manimals are attempting to SLAM you into the earth makes this the toughest position to play and produce in all of sport.
With Bradys winning record, super bowls and individual yardage records etc. clearly makes him the GOAT of this generation.
The GOAT debate will always depend on your perspective. Does GOAT = most accomplished? If so then of coarse he's the GOAT (as long as we're only looking at the super bowl era). I don't personally go by this metric because football is a 53 man team and there is a huge dependency on coaching (if we were talking tennis I'd give much more weight to number of championships).
I think Brady is great (rooted for him last super bowl because I thought Goodell screwed him), top 10 of all time, but not the GOAT. With an average to below average quarterback NE is an 11-5 team (Matt Cassel), 3-1 team (Jimmy G, Brisset). With Tom Brady because he is great puts them over the top with a 12-4 - 14-2 team and super bowl contender. Now look at another perennial playoff team in GB and they showed they were a bad team that couldn't even sniff the playoffs without Rodgers. Go back a few years when Peyton Manning was winning 12 - 14 games a year. He got injured and with the same roster.without him went 2 - 14 (manning is 3-1 against Brady in AFC championship games).
It's all subjective, but I don't have much doubt Brady wouldn't have enjoyed the same successes if he'd been on a different team. No doubt he would have elevated them and I sure wish my team had gotten him (then again my team is the Titans, bet if Jeff Fisher, the qb killer had gotten a hold of Brady no one would have ever heard of him)
I think Brady is great (rooted for him last super bowl because I thought Goodell screwed him), top 10 of all time, but not the GOAT. With an average to below average quarterback NE is an 11-5 team (Matt Cassel), 3-1 team (Jimmy G, Brisset). With Tom Brady because he is great puts them over the top with a 12-4 - 14-2 team and super bowl contender. Now look at another perennial playoff team in GB and they showed they were a bad team that couldn't even sniff the playoffs without Rodgers. Go back a few years when Peyton Manning was winning 12 - 14 games a year. He got injured and with the same roster.without him went 2 - 14 (manning is 3-1 against Brady in AFC championship games).
It's all subjective, but I don't have much doubt Brady wouldn't have enjoyed the same successes if he'd been on a different team. No doubt he would have elevated them and I sure wish my team had gotten him (then again my team is the Titans, bet if Jeff Fisher, the qb killer had gotten a hold of Brady no one would have ever heard of him)
Originally Posted By: tvaughn0712
I sure wish my team had gotten him (then again my team is the Titans, bet if Jeff Fisher, the qb killer had gotten a hold of Brady no one would have ever heard of him)
My team hasn't had a franchise QB since Sid Luckman....maybe Mitch can be.
I sure wish my team had gotten him (then again my team is the Titans, bet if Jeff Fisher, the qb killer had gotten a hold of Brady no one would have ever heard of him)
My team hasn't had a franchise QB since Sid Luckman....maybe Mitch can be.
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