BP's "giant oil discovery"

[Tempest]

Quote:
You argue that the market delivers efficiency, when in thermal efficiency terms, it's blatently not so...e.g. lettuce flown to Paris in winter.

Are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to fly lettuce into Paris in the winter? Seriously.

You have given no background on this. Maybe some rich guy likes a certain type of lettuce and has it flown in? Is there something wrong with that?

And you are solely focused on thermal efficiency, when there are other efficiencies to factor. How much more efficient is a non-market solution to oil usage?

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Tenant won't buy these appliances on their own so they are stuck using inefficient ones.

That is a CHOICE the tenant is to make, and will effectively raise the tenant's rate. This tends to push them out.

Also, you have to ask the question as to why these units are on discount. Cheaper to make?...less energy used to make?

You live in the bay area which is econut central. I've got to believe that there are tons of green this and that all over when it comes to apartments...

 

[Shannow]

Tempest, does it make any sense whatsoever to fly a lettuce (with next to no nutritional value) across the world, when the fuel source is finite ?

When that fuel source could power a tractor, producing massive foodcrops, local to it's market for a heck of a long time ?

You rationalise dehydrating orange juice as an energy efficient measure, but are happy transporting 99% water, by air ?

As to non market energy utilisation, you have agreed previously that we lost 2% thermal efficiency by moving to a market.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
You rationalise dehydrating orange juice as an energy efficient measure, but are happy transporting 99% water, by air ?

I haven't rationalized anything. I simply said I have no where near enough information about either situation that you have posed to make any sort of judgment. I only offered up some possible examples of what and why. There could be tens of factors involved as to why these things are happening.

Quote:
As to non market energy utilisation, you have agreed previously that we lost 2% thermal efficiency by moving to a market.

Are you talking about Oz's power system? You don't have a free market. I can't think of anyway to have negative group prices for generation, and price controlled retail, and even pretend to think of your system as a free market.

 

[Shannow]

We CAN'T have an unregulated market, while still maintaining frequency, power factor, response to trees hitting power lines, sine waves, and all of the things that the rest of industry and technology require.

The regs that you keep bleating about are the ability of power stations to provide the quality of electricity needed by the consumers.

think of it as keeping the lead paint out of the children's toys.

You can't connect a flaky, square wave generator to the grid as your cowboy free market would sllow.

As to the price model, -ve prices, and all players on the spot paid the same price as the highest bidder called up, guess where they got that idea ?

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
We CAN'T have an unregulated market

Thanks for confirming that you don't have a free market.

 

[Shannow]

Explain to me how your wild west electricity market would meet the needs of computers and PCs ?

How it would stop you blowing up your fridge every time a smelter struck an arc ?

Just simple stuff..

please explain how regulation is un-necessary (then I'll move on to child labour, which you've agreed needed regulation)

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
Explain to me how your wild west electricity market would meet the needs of computers and PCs ?

There is no need. Making commerce regular is something that regulations should do. Fixing prices isn't.

The child labor stuff is probably best left on the other board.

 

[Shannow]

And that's what the "regulator" does...controls the quality and reliability of the grid, not the price.

I mess up, and face personal $20,000 fine.

The regulator doesn't have a thing to do with retail prices...which are 6 or so times wholesale.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
In NSW, Victoria, South Australia and Queensland the state governments set the maximum regulated rate that your electricity supplier can charge you. The electricity companies in these states then compete for your business by offering discounts off the regulated electricity rates or other product features.

http://www.shoparound.com.au/Energy/Market/The-National-Electricity-Market.aspx

http://www.efa.com.au/Page.aspx?intPageID=6
Shows a government run monopoly on lines and transmission as well as a tiered system of retailers with certain companies getting government granted monopolies or "most favored" status.

How does anyone looking to make profit bid a negative price? You would be paying someone for the pleasure of working for them...

 

[Shannow]

Tempest, it's supply and demand.

When "natural" demand drops below the minimum turn down of the generators, price drops (market forces), encouraging Al smelters to increase production, and hydros to pump water up hills, to make a profit later.

When the minimum demand is below the minimum turndown of the generators, the price of electricity drops to zero, to the point that the generators either turn off, and use 100,000 litres of oil to start back up, or pay someone to utilise the electricty, pumping non existant water back up the hill, or otherwise use it.

The negative prices ARE the market, and risk at work. And your wild west cheap square wave generators would be paying more for coal (inefficiency), and more negative prices (lower turndown)...

Electricity is the ultimate "just in time"delivery, as my turbines deliver milliseconds after the light switch is flicked.

That's why it's so volatile.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
In NSW, Victoria, South Australia and Queensland the state governments set the maximum regulated rate that your electricity supplier can charge you. The electricity companies in these states then compete for your business by offering discounts off the regulated electricity rates or other product features.

http://www.shoparound.com.au/Energy/Market/The-National-Electricity-Market.aspx

http://www.efa.com.au/Page.aspx?intPageID=6
Shows a government run monopoly on lines and transmission as well as a tiered system of retailers with certain companies getting government granted monopolies or "most favored" status.

How does anyone looking to make profit bid a negative price? You would be paying someone for the pleasure of working for them...


There's sort of a government owned monopoly on providing roads to get from town A to town B also, as well as getting electricity around the place.

Against your biased links, I can buy an electricity contract with any number of providers that exposes me to any level of risk that I want to take.

I can sign up to a way cheaper than the mandated average tariff if I expose myself to the full force of the market, and $100/Kwhr wholesale price, right at dinner time...and it's the wholely privatise companies who are oposing meter that tell you the price minute by minute.

I can personally buy green power at an in determinate premium over the mandated general tarrif.

I don't choose to do either, but I know people who choose those risk profiles.

Do you buy insurance ?

Why shouldn't you personally bear the brunt of your decision to drive your car, at the time you want ?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
How does anyone looking to make profit bid a negative price? You would be paying someone for the pleasure of working for them...

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
"The deciders: You and I are the deciders."

That's a little different from the first post you made on the subject:
Quote:
Part two: Who should decide: YOU AND I, our elected leaders, the Department of Energy and others who SHOULD represent our best interests.

The bolded entities have much more to do with the deciding than do you or I.

Quote:
Why put a limit on efficiency or alternative and renewable energy??

If you could state where I have said this?

Reducing your energy use is just fine. It keeps your bill down and to some degree, everyone's bill down. If you simply want to preach "conservation" as a "social" goal, I have no quarrel with it, but that is very gray area thinking and tends to lead to gray area solutions.

What I do have a problem with is arbitrary mandates that force resources to be used on costly and inefficient sources of "alternative" energy, just because it is the "right thing" to do. Your first post made it quite clear that OTHERS are indeed to make that determination.

If you can't even establish a goal and rational, it is impossible to determine success. Simply doing "something" because "something" must be done, leads to bad things.


What would you deem arbitrary?

You've proposed that alternatives are very expensive, but have never proven that they are a waste in any other terms but (your definition of waste) monetary ..and arbitrary value.

Now if you're saying that you'll be taken to the cleaners in any evolution, sure. So?

You've already denounced ethanol as being a major cost to do what it does for us, yet want finite fuel sources exploited even more to reduce their cost and expend them faster.

So, it would appear that you want to wait until bio based or other alternatives are in "dire need" ..as in desperate. Would that be correct?

Again, are you of the totally blind assumption that the market can adequately respond to any and all events and still satisfy demand? 100% ...24/7/365 ..for eternity ..JUST AS IT DOES TODAY? Yes ..or no?

 

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Tempest
How does anyone looking to make profit bid a negative price? You would be paying someone for the pleasure of working for them...

The price NEVER drops below $0. They aren't paying their customers to take their product. Now they may very well be loosing money at times due to LOW (not negative) prices.

In your situation, the actual PRICE can go negative.

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
When the minimum demand is below the minimum turndown of the generators, the price of electricity drops to zero, to the point that the generators either turn off, and use 100,000 litres of oil to start back up, or pay someone to utilise the electricty, pumping non existant water back up the hill, or otherwise use it.

How much does transmission line capacity and availability affect this?

 

[Shannow]

How can they affect the minimum load ?

They can affect maximum output on hot days, due to heating and sag etc, but not the min.

Why do you ask ?

 

[Tempest]

Quote:
All the more frustrating from the perspective of both electricity consumers and wind plant owners in Texas, many of these instances of negative prices and curtailment have occurred simultaneously with record high electricity prices in other parts of the state. For example, on June 7 and June 8, average wholesale prices were US $103 per MWh in the North Zone of ERCOT, compared to US -$3 per MWh in the adjacent, wind-rich West Zone. If adequate transmission capacity were in place at that time, excess wind energy from West Texas could have been transported to the rest of the state to alleviate high electricity prices. For the first half of 2008, the average wholesale price of electricity in the North Zone of ERCOT was US $71 per MWh, compared to US $55 per MWh in the West Zone.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/...nsmission-53616
These transmission lines are owned, operated and expanded by the State, just as they are in Oz.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
Tenant won't buy these appliances on their own so they are stuck using inefficient ones.

That is a CHOICE the tenant is to make, and will effectively raise the tenant's rate. This tends to push them out.

Also, you have to ask the question as to why these units are on discount. Cheaper to make?...less energy used to make?

You live in the bay area which is econut central. I've got to believe that there are tons of green this and that all over when it comes to apartments...


Tenants don't look at the energy efficiency of the refrigerator when they rent an apartment. Heck, they don't even look at energy efficiency rating of the insulation of the apartment when they rent because that's just not something people can easily inspect.

Why are they cheaper? because they are cheaper to make with less insulation and less efficient motoring I guess, but the biggest point is that those who buy the unit are not the one that use and pay for the long term cost, and it is not something that people can demand when the appliances are bundled into the rental unit.

Why aren't they regulated? I don't know, maybe it is not really that big of a deal or maybe someone is lobbying too hard to keep the low efficiency units around?

 

[Shannow]

Ah, tempest forgive me for not seeing that if there's a "problem", it's automatically Govt caused.

Funny that it only happens on Sunday and Monday mornings, at around 2-3AM, when all of the evil Govt gremlins should be tucked up in their beds, fast asleep...