Bosch "Premium" = Junk?

[tenderloin]

Champion says Bosch Filters are upgrades over STP and ST...so what the H? You are paying $5 for a filter and are comparing to a double digit filter and are unhappy?

Apples and oranges....

I have used Bosch on my cars and am quite happy. Now my cars are not the German brands that some feel makes them superior..not only the products but the owners as well.

Bosch is not trying to fool anyone.They are marketing a good product at a fair price.

 

[TC]

Thanks for the great feedback, folks. Good stuff. My Bosch filters were made-in-USA Champions.

Here's a hypothetical: I claim I'm going to deliver "up to 42% more" winter heating oil to your basement than the competition. Instead, I deliver 15-50% LESS, without disclosing same, and then charge you a higher price over my counterparts. Is this a problem?

"Bosch is not trying to fool anyone." Say what???
I beg to differ. I'm able to measure their deception on my lie-o-meter, and it's registering 42%.

All filters claim to be "superior," "premium," etc. I ignore that stuff -- it's meaningless marketing speak, of course -- but I often believe firms when they QUANTIFY how their product is better (silly me). If their claims are proven untrue, I ignore qualifiers such as "up to" and acknowledge the obvious -- we've been conned.

I hesitated to slam an entire brand of filters based on one part #, but in fact, Bosch #3312 is probably one of their best sellers, fitting any number of Hondas, Chryslers, Mitsubishis, Hundais, and older Mazdas. A very popular application. Plus, the magazine's results fairly matched NTPOG.ORG's results when they tested Honda filters. No aspects of filters are more important than media area and pore size/flow.

I certainly wouldn't be surprised if European-market Bosch filters are of different construction, and of significantly higher quality as well. I'd guess that their Euro-market products are first-rate.

G-ManII: I read your comments as to (paraphrasing) "Yeah, but there were other Champions that did well in the test...and the STP is identical to the SuperTech" and "What is someone thinking when they read 'Made in USA? A superior German-made Bosch filter?'" But I'm at a loss as to what any of that has to do with "up to 42% more media" reflecting reality, with reality being 15-50% LESS media, coupled with a premium price. I specifically commented on Bosch's numerical claims, not on Champions, STPs, SuperTechs, or Euro-versus-USA products.

[ February 20, 2004, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[G-MAN]

TC,

They aren't saying they give 42% more media in every single application. That's why it's worded "up to 42%." In some applications, the Bosch filter will have "up to" 42% more media; in others, it won't. This seems pretty straight forward to me.

[ February 20, 2004, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: G-Man II ]

 

[TC]

Here's the exact quote from their website: "The Bosch FILTECH filtering area is up to 42% larger than conventional filters." No definition's provided of what a "conventional" filter is supposed to be, although they allude to synthetic fibers making their media unique. The magazine's test included a wide assortment of cellulose and synthetic, blended and paper-only fibers, so I'll assume at least some of the filters were "conventional."

One can interpret and even justify Bosch's numerical claim any way they choose, even in a way that would make an Enron lawyer proud. If this was a lawsuit of some sort, the "up to" qualifier would be all that a defense attorney needs.

But to a non-lawyer consumer, the intent of "up to 42% larger" is absolutely crystal clear. It is solely intended to make potential customers believe that Bosch Premium filters have substantially greater media than the competition, thereby justifying the $6 price. Personally, I feel no need to defend Bosch for their Enron-like "up to" cop-out, especially considering that the few Bosch filters I've seen cut open and measured in studies had INFERIOR media area.

[ February 20, 2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[n8wvi]

quote:

---

I just like the "Made in USA" part...

---

I like that as well, but keep in mind, there are places it can be made that are NOT in the 50 states that can still put this label on products.

I always try to check where (specifically) it was made, although sometimes this is difficult.

Dave

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Let's just hope they are REALLY made in the USA then..
Just checked a ST3980 out in the garage...says "made in Mexico" on top of the can

I'll have to check the other clones next time I go in there (Autozone)...
maybe that's why the Bosch costs more than the ST? maybe it REALLY IS made in the USA

Thanks for the note,,TGIF
Rando

 

[outrun]

By the way,

data aside: it is my opinion that Champion Filters are excellent products.

It is simply unfair to say that just because Bosch filters are Champion units its American "junk".

That is baseless 3rd grade rhetoric in my opinion.

I have used Mobil 1, STP, K&N, AC Delco and SuperTech...since i from my board research im quite confident in Champion filters

 

[TC]

Hmmm...I reread this thread, and nobody has suggested here that "...because Bosch filters are Champion units, it's American 'junk.'"

 

[edwardh1]

recent test notwithstanding its interesting that the filter makers have created an environment of multiple medias, and multiple test methods with varying particle size, all done by the company itself.
A perfect environment that makes it real hard for the consumer to compare. they all are better than other brands.!!!! Just read the side of box.

sorta like car tires (or carpets) almost impossible to compare. goodyear makes Viva II tires for Walmart what are they? bridgstone makes RE930s for Costco what are these tires? They are Not listed in the company tire web sites.

this situation leaves it open for the marketing wonks to then create the demand for a whatever product. Can you say big orange fram displays and low prices.
too bad they don't sell products as good better best.
My decison was to buy a filter sold by the company that made it and put their own name on it - purolater wix etc. Pureone was my choice

[ February 21, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: edwardh1 ]

 

[moribundman]

TC, when Bosch claims a 42% larger filter medium, they may not be talking simply about surface area. Don't count out thickenss and type of material, which surely affect filtering capability. That said, I have no experience with non-German-made Bosch filters, but from reactions on this board I can tell that I'm one of the few people who's willing to spend well over $10 for an oil filter. Bosch may be using their (still) good reputation and peddle products of lesser quality. That wouldn't surprise me, as it's a common practice.

 

[tenderloin]

TC The simple answer to all your BS and complaints is..... DON'T BUY AMERICAN MADE BOSCH FILTERS!

BTW outrun 3rd grade was being kind.....

[ February 21, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: tenderloin ]

 

[TC]

Per the NTPOG study, the Bosch media was 0.032" thick, the same as Honda, STP, and Napa Gold. Nothing unique. Media thickness is of little relevance unless it's a depth type media such as Fleetguard StrataPore, or unless it's so thin that it tends to perforate or tear.

For fun I scanned through the four large filter studies I've printed out (Overboost Magazine, Grease Mercruiser, Russ K/Mini-Mopar, and NTPOG.ORG) to determine the filter with the least filtering media. It didn't take long.

Out of 54 filters cut open and measured, which one had the SMALLEST filtering media? You guessed it, #54 out of 54, a Bosch Premium, with a pathetic 81 sq in of filtering capability.

Overboost Magazine got it right when they warned about the Bosch reputation and their U.S. filters, "...don't let that promise fool you." Enough said. Bosch Premium is JUNK.

(Tenderloin: From your comments in the past, I know your knowledge of oil filters is limited -- the four studies mentioned above are quite good, and I can highly recommend them for boning up on this stuff.)

[ February 22, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[moribundman]

ZR2RANDO, I found a pic of the OEM VW/Audi filter bought at the dealer. I've been assured it's made by Bosch. It's the one on the right:

Not sure who makes the one with the pink lettering. And yes, the filter is almost as big as in the picture. The Mann filter is even longer.

[ February 23, 2004, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Moribundman...are you prepping for surgery?,,,maybe the dealership would have a cut up example? to show "german quality"???
We need to see some guts

Thanks for the pics
Rando

 

[moribundman]

I can cut up the old filter next time I change it, if someone tells me what the best and least messy method is. I really don't want to destroy a new filter.

 

[joatmon]

The "pretty in pink" one may be Hengst, an OEM supplier to German makers.

 

[ZR2RANDO]

I have just used a hack saw in the past, let the filter drain well (stick a wire in one of the inlet holes to push back the ADBV valve and let the oil drain out .
Just cut it (just follow the edge of the can near the side with the holes) the paper/media is just inside the diameter of the can so no need to cut very deep, just follow the edge of the can. Some people have used a can opener but I never have.
I agree with cutting open the dirty ones only...a full study would use clean ones, but I use them first myself.
Looking forward to seeing it, I'm sure some others are as well...