Patman
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I thought this deserved it's own thread. This was posted by cheeks.
http://members.aol.com/phundotcom/oil.htm
http://members.aol.com/phundotcom/oil.htm
Bosch Premium Cut Open!
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Yep..Thats the exact filter I had on my Jeep in the oversize Ford model and it worked like crap.The by-pass is a cheap,liability disclaimer for Champion Labs and if, and when, it ever goes into by-pass mode just a few particles will keep it in permanant by-pass.This will occur by keeping the "button" down and you might as well have no fliter on the engine at all.It's a metal to metal "seal",if you can call it that,and I had one on my 4.0L for a week with terrible pressure lag at start-up along with a warning beep on the dash.Switched it out to the Purolater Premium Plus in the same size and everything went back to normal.Thanks cheeks for the picks.
i got a few bosch sitting around that i would like to open soon. and a few frams that has been in a sludged engine...i want to compare how much it catches with auto ax...ill probably use a open C saw blade to cut them open. ill do 1 today and take some pics...im keeping logs of how the car is reacting to the treatment....im courious just how much bosch got out of my car...
Great work cheeks - now I know what I have sitting on the shelf until we reach some consensus on this. One question, in Fig. 5, is that about as far as the plate would open with the pencil eraser and about how much pressure did you have to use if it would open more. I realize it may not work when dis-assembled. The thing that still troubles me about this is the fact that Bosche doesn't even mention the bypass valve on their website premium cut-away illustration as they do for the standard filter. They're bound to have someone who looks at these postings or least tells them about it and yet they don't respond.
Another issue with this type of bypass is that even if it works as designed, during bypass the oil is flowing past (washing) the dirty side of the filter and then bypassing through those holes and continuing into the motor. My Nissan truck uses a filter that has an internal bypass, the ST version would be the ST16, I use the Motorcraft fl300 instead because the bypass is BEFORE the media and does not take the dirty side material with it into the engine.
The possibility of crud forcing the bypass to stay open is also definite.
The Fram filters also bypass on the "dirty side",using a small plastic button, by the way.
I do use the ST3980 for my Chevy trucks, they do not have an internal bypass
Rando
The possibility of crud forcing the bypass to stay open is also definite.
The Fram filters also bypass on the "dirty side",using a small plastic button, by the way.
I do use the ST3980 for my Chevy trucks, they do not have an internal bypass
Rando
Amen, zr2rando. Amen.
The more I read and think about oil filters, the more I am convinced that we focus way too much on filtering efficiency. Way too much.
I've never had a car problem because a filter failed to catch big crud in an engine.
Nor have I ever had a car last a million miles because it filters out stuff so small an electron microscope wouldn't see it.
However, I have had a vehicle with cold start up noise SO BAD I was ready to take it into the dealer to get checked out. That was before I discovered the real culprit.
I had 2 filters crush like pop cans as I remove them because their shell was SOOO thin. Had to take them into a shop to get 'em off. Lordly, that was embarrassing.
I for one could never tell if a filter were in bypass mode. But if my car ever was, I'm not too excited about the prospects of stuff the filter already caught re-circulating in the engine.
Each to his own, but I'm beginning to wonder if more mundane filter features and design considerations are actually the more important ones.
[ March 13, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Roger ]
The more I read and think about oil filters, the more I am convinced that we focus way too much on filtering efficiency. Way too much.
I've never had a car problem because a filter failed to catch big crud in an engine.
Nor have I ever had a car last a million miles because it filters out stuff so small an electron microscope wouldn't see it.
However, I have had a vehicle with cold start up noise SO BAD I was ready to take it into the dealer to get checked out. That was before I discovered the real culprit.
I had 2 filters crush like pop cans as I remove them because their shell was SOOO thin. Had to take them into a shop to get 'em off. Lordly, that was embarrassing.
I for one could never tell if a filter were in bypass mode. But if my car ever was, I'm not too excited about the prospects of stuff the filter already caught re-circulating in the engine.
Each to his own, but I'm beginning to wonder if more mundane filter features and design considerations are actually the more important ones.
[ March 13, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Roger ]
The filter manufacturers know that the majority of their customers don't take their products apart.SAE requirements are just that...requirements...and making money is the name of the game...to just meet those requirements and make a ton of money is the ideal situation.If EVERYONE were to take everthing for granted ,that we are "being taken care of" by big brother,then we are a lost cause as far as pioneering spirit is concerned.We were all concerned at the start of this thread that there was NO by-pass.I admit I made an error and went off half-cocked on this thing.But to place a half-a$$ "clicker" by-pass relying on the production grade sheet metal quality ,in a premium filter no less,with very questionable sealing and mode operation is a slap in the face to the purchasing public.There are far better choices out there for the same money,which we all know by way of this forum.Rant over
I don't see how this sort of bypass valve could ever provide reliable on/off service. Nor do I see how it could help but allow some bypass at all times because of the poor metal-to-metal seal.
I've been a "champion" of Champion made filters, but it looks as if I'll be using Wix filters from now on.
I've been a "champion" of Champion made filters, but it looks as if I'll be using Wix filters from now on.
now im cuourious...what is the differnce between the bosch bypass and the supertech bypass. should i not use bosch cause of this thing of 'not being able to seal all the way' opinion? i have not seen the supertech bypass cause they ran out of mine but i recently learned they were replaced by st3593a. so fill me in
The bypass valve in the SuperTech ST8A that I use is identical to this. I'd seen the small holes through the opening, but I didn't realize exactly how the valve worked until I saw this guy's pictures.
This is a change in the way Champion consturcts filters. I've cut open other Champion-made filters in the past and the bypass valve was not like this.
I just changed the oil and I was running a Bosch Premium. It had the same pressure build up as the Wix I had on before.
Jason
Jason
ok today i looked up the st3593a/3950/3985 and really the 9350 was an odd shaped one, it was smaller yet wider than the normal one. the 3985 cannot be found but the 3593a was the exact size as one reconmended for honda filters. inside i saw no spring though, but it looks similar to the bosch filter on the outside...on the next treatment im going to open this filter up...hehe maybe if im bored im going to open this filter up since it costs 2 dollars and see how their bypass valve works.
i really hope its better than bosch's leaf plate
i really hope its better than bosch's leaf plate
The bosch 3323 filter I recently bought from AutoZone still has the spring type bypass at the top and I may stock up on this 'older' stock if indeed all their filters are going to be converted to the leaf spring bypass design. Inherently, I don't like it nor will I continue to use Bosch if my filter application goes to the new leaf spring bypass at the dirty bottom end. Back to using the Nissan OEM on my VQ engine. BTW, it has the spring designed bypass.
spring really? 3323? its not visible is it? man i got to open the filter...what do u use.
..i meant what type of filter u use
I think this looks like it's simpler than the old spring and probably a lot cheaper to manufacture too. Unlike Fram, it doesn't look like durability would be sacrificed and the rest of the filter still looks like it's well constructed. I think I'll keep using Champions-- they saved money on the spring in exchange for a slightly better filtering medium. It's a wash as far as I'm concerned.
I should add that the original MiniMopar site blasted Champion Labs almost as much as Fram for inferior filtering material and rust. Supposedly edits were made upon threats from Champion attorneys. (Frams attorneys just ignored the whole deal.)
The "paper expert" who used to post to the Edmunds board was dismissive of the complaints about flimsy filtering material. He was probably biased since his firm supplied paper to Champion Labs and not Fram, but said that SuperTech had one of the best filtering mediums going.
I remember rust on some old STP units at Wal-Mart but that was years ago.
[ March 21, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: csandste ]
The "paper expert" who used to post to the Edmunds board was dismissive of the complaints about flimsy filtering material. He was probably biased since his firm supplied paper to Champion Labs and not Fram, but said that SuperTech had one of the best filtering mediums going.
I remember rust on some old STP units at Wal-Mart but that was years ago.
[ March 21, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: csandste ]
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