Bosch D+ 3312 Cut open, ~14k miles

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep


Perspective is everything I guess, I don't see it as old oil being "rejuvenated" by the new oil, I see it as new oil being "diluted" or "polluted" by old oil.


It could be looked at both ways but I would ask you this, KC: what about drain & fills on transmissions, power steering and such?

I'm not generally a proponent of changing oil and not the filters. IMO, most who do that are changing the oil too soon. If I did that, I'd be doing it for a known purpose... like a bad UOA but if oil was bad, I'd be tempted to do the filter too, because the OC would be done on the basis on used up oil. But on the other hand, a pint of old oil in 5 quarts of new... no sweatamundo really. You would be surprised how much oil stays in some engines anyway.

BUT, KC, don't think your one UOA proves the point one way or another.

In the end, arguing this point is not the hill I wanna die on. I can see it working both ways but, for myself anyway, I'd do it one way other the other based on facts and data.

 

[JZiggy]

Hosteen, did you join BITOG just to use the word "prostate" in my thread?! Thanks a lot.

Is the D+ actually a 15k filter? I guess I just assumed it was.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen

It could be looked at both ways but I would ask you this, KC: what about drain & fills on transmissions, power steering and such?

BUT, KC, don't think your one UOA proves the point one way or another.


Both good points, although with trannys and PS there is not a cheap DIY'er option like there is by simply throwing a $4 oil filter into the mix.

Not the hill I want to die on either, I've done it both ways, I also agree a single UOA is just a start as well but it certainly has me rethinking my options a bit.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I'm guessing the next thing we will hear is,"Why not just keep using the same oil over and over?" I mean, if there is dirty oil left in the engine, why add new oil to dirty oil? If it's ok to use a dirty filter over and over again, why not use dirty oil over and over again?

(This should get some interesting replies!)

It's not that interesting. You don't (or shouldn't need to) change oil because it's dirty, you change it because the TBN/TAN is 'done'.

Engine oil has a limited lifespan in use just like the filter. Measurements and analysis will tell you when that is.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I'm guessing the next thing we will hear is,"Why not just keep using the same oil over and over?" I mean, if there is dirty oil left in the engine, why add new oil to dirty oil? If it's ok to use a dirty filter over and over again, why not use dirty oil over and over again?

(This should get some interesting replies!)

It's not that interesting. You don't (or shouldn't need to) change oil because it's dirty, you change it because the TBN/TAN is 'done'.

Engine oil has a limited lifespan in use just like the filter. Measurements and analysis will tell you when that is.

What determines when an oil filter needs to be replaced?

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
What determines when an oil filter needs to be replaced?

That depends on the build of the filter. Assuming it has durable gasket and valve material a filter will be 'done' when it's pressure-drop begins to rise above a certain point. As the media loads-up (causing the pressure-drop to rise and flow to decrease) it will reach a point where it does not allow sufficient flow. That's when you change it. For a typical oil-filter I would change it when it is loaded enough to approach opening the bypass valve (not exceed it) during normal operation.

For an air-filter, the change out is when full-throttle performance is affected or when pressure-drop is reaching an upper limit (compromising the structure).

This is one thing that Jim is measuring right now. It'll be interesting to see his results.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
What determines when an oil filter needs to be replaced?

That depends on the build of the filter. Assuming it has durable gasket and valve material a filter will be 'done' when it's pressure-drop begins to rise above a certain point. As the media loads-up (causing the pressure-drop to rise and flow to decrease) it will reach a point where it does not allow sufficient flow. That's when you change it. For a typical oil-filter I would change it when it is loaded enough to approach opening the bypass valve (not exceed it) during normal operation.

For an air-filter, the change out is when full-throttle performance is affected or when pressure-drop is reaching an upper limit (compromising the structure).

This is one thing that Jim is measuring right now. It'll be interesting to see his results.

Yes, I have been following JA's testing. But, is this something everyone is going to go out and buy, let alone, to even "WANT" to buy? Why not just do as we have for years; CHANGE IT AT EACH OCI! What is so hard about this?
And an air filter; Do we continue to follow scheduled PM intervals as when to change it? Do we just look at it and see it getting dirty and change it? The pattern I see forming here is people "speculating" when a filter should or should not be replaced. I think dirt and sludge are going to continue to be dirt and sludge, as it has been for eons. And it will continue to be a culprit as the way to destroy an engine. I guess the bottom line is some are going to gamble with their engine when it's just safe to change the filter at each OCI. Wow, so simple.

 

[Sunnyinhollister]

I don't see a problem keeping a filter on for multiple oil change intervals under certain conditions and if the pressure differential is known. I would not do it on a short tripper nor will would I consider it under warranty.

 

[Coprolite]

I don't know why you feel the need to harp on this subject.

I would say that you can use a filter:
1)As per the Owner's Manual instructions (every 1 or 2 OCI or OLM cycles, depending on manufacturer)
2)For the miles quoted on the filter box
3)When the differential gets too high. JA's rig for oil pressure is great for BITOG, but it would be easier to change as per #1. The definition of "too high" has me a bit concerned, as bypass will become more and more common as the bypass value is approached (below op temp). For an air filter, tattle tales are the easiest and best way.

Some manufacturers warn against changing oil out too often, as this would increase wear and waste oil. Changing the filter at half the OEM OCI could also be considered as the owner deliberately increasing wear with a new filter and new oil.

Finally, BOF, some people like to experiment to see where the boundaries are. I would say that controlled filter and oil experiments are pretty benign on the grand scale of things. Half the fun of these little experiments is getting together and comparing notes and learning from other peoples experiences. It is also fun to banter with contrarians to one's viewpoints as long as they don't get pedantic or go out of bounds.


Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter

Yes, I have been following JA's testing. But, is this something everyone is going to go out and buy, let alone, to even "WANT" to buy? Why not just do as we have for years; CHANGE IT AT EACH OCI! What is so hard about this?
And an air filter; Do we continue to follow scheduled PM intervals as when to change it? Do we just look at it and see it getting dirty and change it? The pattern I see forming here is people "speculating" when a filter should or should not be replaced. I think dirt and sludge are going to continue to be dirt and sludge, as it has been for eons. And it will continue to be a culprit as the way to destroy an engine. I guess the bottom line is some are going to gamble with their engine when it's just safe to change the filter at each OCI. Wow, so simple.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why not just do as we have for years; CHANGE IT AT EACH OCI! What is so hard about this?

There's nothing hard about it, it's very easy to throw money as a solution. Some people want to know what's going on and how to optimize.

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
The pattern I see forming here is people "speculating" when a filter should or should not be replaced.

That's exactly the opposite of what I'm talking about. Knowing when and why to change something is valuable and useful information. You don't have to be interested in that.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Why not just do as we have for years; CHANGE IT AT EACH OCI! What is so hard about this?

There's nothing hard about it, it's very easy to throw money as a solution. Some people want to know what's going on and how to optimize.

Time to just throw in the towel.
I honestly don't see how changing an oil filter, that on average can cost $3.00 to $10.00, as a way to trap the engines biggest enemy, dirt, as "throwing" money away. It's like playing Russian Roulette with your engine by not doing so.
As stated before, I will just keep changing mine every OCI. Good luck.

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Time to just throw in the towel.

That's the spirit! I accept!!!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Time to just throw in the towel.

That's the spirit! I accept!!!

 

[JZiggy]

I think the real question is, did the filter handle the run? It doesn't care if the oil is clean or "dirty."

 

[martinq]

Originally Posted By: JZiggy
I think the real question is, did the filter handle the run? It doesn't care if the oil is clean or "dirty."

There's no signs of clogging or media failure so I'd say it did fine and could go longer. We wouldn't know for sure without more data though.