Boating day from [censored]. A few questions.

[friendly_jacek]

This is not exactly a lubrication question but definitely boating, so only partially off topic.

Finally this weekend I got my boat out. The last trip was exactly a year ago with lots of water skiing etc and the boat ran great (2003 Bayliner 175 with 3.0L I/O). The boat was winterized last fall.

I cranked very long and it failed to start. I realized that one spark plug wire was left disconnected (sloppy me when I winterized). When I reconnected, it started with the usual smoke from winterizing oil. Here are the surprises. The oil pressure gauge stays below zero and the tach is dead. I stopped and troubleshooted and found that oil was full, the oil pressure sender worked but the gauge was dead. I hesitated some but decided to go boating because wee had friends from out of state and wanted to take them to the lake badly. When I launched the boat it turned out that the trim gauge was stuck in the top position (but later unstack and it works off and on now). The water temp gauge was also stuck at 100F. Worse, we could not get on plane with decent RPM by engine sound, I was afraid to push it without a tach.

I realized that there would be no skiing and I anchored and kids swam a while. Suddenly, it got cloudy and stormy and we had to scramble back to a shore at only no wake speed.

Since the rain continued and was getting late already we pulled the boat on trailer and hurried home. While driving I heard some noise from the trailer and realized I got flat tire. Before I pulled to the shoulder (from 70 MPH) the tire was shredded and smoking. Took me forever to replace the tire for many reasons but also because it was dark and raining. BTW, the tires were in great shape (great tread and little weather checking) and inflated to the nominal 50 psi before I left, but clearly old at 7 years of age (I was planning to replace them soon).

Here are my questions:

1. Am I the only one with bad luck with Faria gauges? I already replaced the tach and Voltmeter gauges once under warranty. The speedometer newer worked right.
The fuel gauge is also flaky and never goes back to zero when turned off. Is there a better vendor and would other gauges be compatible? I would not mind replacing them all.

2. Did I fry the gauges by cranking with one spark wire disconnected? Or is it just from age and boat sitting in a hot place?

3. What's with lack of engine power, and inability to go on plane? Is carburetor messed up? Could old gas do it? I kept full tank (like instructed) with stabil in it. Now the gas is one year old. I did that in the past and had no issues before. I guess I need to drain old gas. Which brings me to the next question:

4. How do you drain gas from boat? Is there some kind of gas pump that can be utilized? I have a cheap tubing with squeeze bulb that doesn't seem to work.

5. I realized that car tire jack is hardly a match for boat weight. What do you guys utilize? Hydraulic jack?

6. I need new trailer tires and heard good and bad things about Goodyear Marathon radial trailer tires. Probably the only trailer tire still made in USA. Chinese trailer tires are universally hated. I can get them for $69 at tirerack. Is there a better tire?

I know this is a lot of questions and thanks for any input.

 

[oilboy123]

1 Stewart Warner is known for good gauges, don't know about Faria. I don't think they are as good, but I'm just guessing.

2 I don't think that you can fry gauges with a loose plug wire.

3 Don't know about the no power, Possible fouled plugs or carb clogged up?

4 I would buy one of those big diameter siphon hoses I have seen at Overtons catalog. It has a big ball you shake to get the fluid siphoning.

5 I use a small floor jack

6 I bought some trailer tires/rims mail order "last year" and noticed the Goodyear Marathons say Made in China. Don't know if that's still the case.

Some electric gauges don't 0 out with the ignition turned off.

 

[moklock]

Auto Meter makes some marine gauges as well IIRC.

 

[tomcat27]

I've been boating for 24 years, so I can feel your pain! I've had more than a few bad days.

Tires? I go with Goodyear. the last time I had a tire failure, I asked the tire tech to analyze. in my case the tire must have hit something a long time ago - the steel cords were rusted in one place - they broke and the tire blew.

I have Faria gauges on my current boat (not a cheap boat...) and at any given time, one or two of them dont work. and thats on a 2005! I've had equal (bad) luck with whatever Bayliner used in the past also. (two bayliners previously) half the time its not the gauge, but the sending unit or wiring.

despite all of the advice to leave the gas tank full to prevent moisture in the tank,- I always run my tank down as low as I dare before storage - and have never had a problem.

are you sure that your temp gauge is stuck? perhaps your thermostat is stuck open?

 

[tomcat27]

oh, as far as a trailer jack: the best is probably to use a floor jack and a jack stand (if you have space to carry) make sure to test the setup at home eto ensure you have enough lift. a year ago I had a flat in a construction zone (no shoulder) on a major highway on a 90 degree day. that's when i discovered that neither my jack or the jacks carried by the IDOT road crews has enough lift to lift up my trailer. the double axle suspension has so much travel that we could not change the tire. that was a very long day....... and expensive.

 

[JimPghPA]

Definition of Boat: A hole in the water that you pour money into.

Additional information: The larger the boat the larger the hole, and the more money you have to pour into it.

B.O.A.T. = Bust Out Another Thousand

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How often do you pack the trailer bearings. It is a pain but I have the bearing buddies and carrie a grease gun with lithium grease and put some in just before the first submersion every day. I also pulled cleaned and packed the bearings at the end of every summer before storing the boat in a garage. Still eventually after many years the bearings went bad and I had to replace them. If your bearings are causing too much drag even a new tire will blow.

BTW I also replaced the trailer tires when they showed cracks of dry rot, before they blew.

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My boat is a Sail boat, and I have worked on every part of it at one time or another over the years. From the top of the mast, to the bearing for the center board, from the light at the bow to the light at the stern, and everything in-between. Still I think a Sail boat is lower in cost than a power boat, and sail boats are not cheap. A new main sail is over $700. And there are hundreds of dollars for ropes, A shade Bimini top cost over $1200. Kicker engine and spring raising mount $600. Engine oil, gas tank, fill and empty fuel bulb, Lights, Bilge Pumps, Battery for bilge and lights, Fire Extinguisher, First Aid Kit, Flairs, Life Jackets, Throw Cushions that float and can be used for seats, Cooler, New Jib Sail, Fix Roller for Jib, Replace wood Bearing for Jib, Replace Wood by Mast mount, Fix Center Board Bearing, Fix Rudder Pivot, Guards for Mast Cables, Fenders, Cleat for Dock, Temporary Cleat for rental cabin dock, Signal Whistle, Small life jacket because friend has young child and will probably want to go out next trip, - - - - - -

It seams like it never ends.

BTW I had a few things break on the sail boat over the years. Once a cable for the mast came loose because someone who helped me set the boat up did not put a keeper in a pin. Kept boat on tack that had that cable with no pull, and used hook from bungee cord for quick temporary pin to hold cable. Once the rudder pivot pin fell out of the metal casting for the rudder. Had to run engine to steer boat. And the new outboard broke twice in the first year. Once with rubber from the fuel line blocking open the carb needle valve, and once the pin for the carb float was actually to short and one side fell off the mount when the pin slid all the way to the other side. Had engine loser unit oil replaced by boat store that I got it from at end of first year, and they did not use new gasket for screw. Oil leaked out while boat was in water at dock during week when I was not using it. I was lucky that I was not fined for that one. The boat next to mine had a gas can for engine that was over filled and gas was getting into water the same week and they were fined.



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I could tell you many stories of the problems boat owners I know have had. Just one person with a similar power boat to yours purchased it when it was one year old. The boat had initially come form the factory with no transmission fluid. The first owner had problems because of that. It was improperly winterized by the first owner but we did not know that. The water pump went for my friend the new owner the first time he used it. Engine over heated when water pump went. Fixed water pump. The exhaust bellows had been damaged by over heating (another day at the lake with no use when that problem was found). Purchased a new stainless steel prop with a slightly better pitch to get two skiers up. Hit a rock second day of use at end of day by dock when removing boat, damaged prop. Took prop to get it fixed. Went out with old prop. Boat would not work, coupling to outdrive sheared form hitting rock with SS prop. An aluminum prop might of gave more. Fixed coupling (another day at the lake with no use). Next season Engine required tune up. This caused a few days loss of use during a week at the lake at a rented cabin. The next thing that went was the hydraulics to raise and lower the outdrive. System leaked. Now here comes the icing on the cake. The engine blew, and I do mean blew. Piston connecting rod through the bottom of the engine. Got a replacement engine that never ran 100 percent, and then in disgust sold it. He then bought a slightly bigger boat with an 8 cylinder outdrive instead of a (4 or a 6) I cant remember which but it was hard on that engine to make the HP it made for the size it was. Spent the first 1/2 of the season breaking in the new 8 cylinder on the new boat. The last day of summer use, goes to the lake to pick it up to take to a storage underground mine. It is GONE. Trailer and Boat and everything stored in it stolen from the rented boat storage place near the lake. He had insurance. But had to make payments all winter on a boat he no longer had any idea where it was, while waiting on the insurance to pay up. He then bought another similar boat.

If you ever have some time to kill just sit in the shade and watch boats being launched and retrieved, or if you want talk to some boat owners at the dock. There was one guy I was watching at one lake with a very large (for that lake) open aluminum boat with fishing seats, gear, and outboard. I commented " nice boat". He said "Yea, this is my small boat". I asked you have a larger boat. He said yea. I asked where is it at. He said the bottom of lake Erie. I asked how did that happen. He explained that to keep the bait as a specific depth, they used a down rigger cable that they dropped from the front of the boat. They were trolling along and snagged something. The front of the boat went down and he went into the cabin to make call and get life-jackets, but boat was sinking so fast that water began pouring into the cabin. The next thing he knew he and two other were in the water with one life-jacket, and one foam cooler to use for floatation. This was more than 10 miles from coast. They were out there for hours and a boat came by. Just pure dumb luck, they never had time to radio for help before the boat sank.

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If you are using it, sooner or later something will break.

A friend of mine pointed out to me how the tiller for the rudder had scratched an arc on his sunfish sailboat when his daughter had use it many times. I said to him, "You know what that proves? That you are using it."

Sometimes the right thing to do is to roll with the punch and not let it spoil everyone's fun. A certain amount of breakage is normal. Just try to head off as much of it as you can by inspecting, and good maintenance with good quality items. Pay attention for anything that is not 100 percent right, and fix it before it gets worse and causes a major problem. Also learn from others and try to avoid problems they had.

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Are we having fun yet?

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: tomcat27

Tires? I go with Goodyear. the last time I had a tire failure, I asked the tire tech to analyze. in my case the tire must have hit something a long time ago - the steel cords were rusted in one place - they broke and the tire blew.

I have Faria gauges on my current boat (not a cheap boat...) and at any given time, one or two of them dont work. and thats on a 2005! I've had equal (bad) luck with whatever Bayliner used in the past also. (two bayliners previously) half the time its not the gauge, but the sending unit or wiring.

despite all of the advice to leave the gas tank full to prevent moisture in the tank,- I always run my tank down as low as I dare before storage - and have never had a problem.

are you sure that your temp gauge is stuck? perhaps your thermostat is stuck open?


Thanks for the advice. I will go ahead with Goodyear tires.
What bothers me about trailer tires, the trailer makers put the smallest tire that will barely hold the load. In my case 2 175/80D13 tires with max load of 1360 lbs each are supporting at least 2700-2800 lbs (after loading the boat with gas and basic gear minus tongue weight). No wonder the tires burst when weakened by puncture or old age. Car tires are over-sized by a factor of 2 or more. Unfortunately, my trailer will not take bigger tires without major mods.

What you said about Faria makes sense. I went to their website and they have a lifetime warranty, but one has to pay for replacement. Great business model!
I will go ahead with troubleshooting temp gauge before replacing though.

You are completely right about cheap electric parts Bayliner uses. I went through 1 ignition switch and 2 solenoids and all those gauges. The boat is rarely used though. Could low use be a problem? I have no more than 80 hrs on the boat.

I may need to do the same thing about gas, but how about the moisture condensing in empty tank? Especially with required 10% ethanol these days. Would water separating fuel filter take care of that?

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: tomcat27
oh, as far as a trailer jack: the best is probably to use a floor jack and a jack stand (if you have space to carry) make sure to test the setup at home eto ensure you have enough lift. a year ago I had a flat in a construction zone (no shoulder) on a major highway on a 90 degree day. that's when i discovered that neither my jack or the jacks carried by the IDOT road crews has enough lift to lift up my trailer. the double axle suspension has so much travel that we could not change the tire. that was a very long day....... and expensive.


I hear you. When I first jacked the frame, the wheel did not go up. Then I jacked the axle. It worked, but I had to lower again because the lugs nuts would not come out with raised wheel. Mind you I broke the nuts lose (barely) before raising the trailer. Between raising the trailer 3 times and removing all 5 nuts I was exhausted.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: oilboy123


3 Don't know about the no power, Possible fouled plugs or carb clogged up?

4 I would buy one of those big diameter siphon hoses I have seen at Overtons catalog. It has a big ball you shake to get the fluid siphoning.

Thanks !

I will look into fouled plugs, makes sense but the engine idled OK. Is there an easy way to test for clogged carb? I would hate to rebuild if not broken.

I will also look for decent siphon hoses at local auto stores.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: JimPghPA

How often do you pack the trailer bearings. It is a pain but I have the bearing buddies and carrie a grease gun with lithium grease and put some in just before the first submersion every day. I also pulled cleaned and packed the bearings at the end of every summer before storing the boat in a garage. Still eventually after many years the bearings went bad and I had to replace them. If your bearings are causing too much drag even a new tire will blow.



I'm religious about lubricating. Duh, I'm a BITOG member. I have EZ lube fittings on the axle and I pump new grease after each boating day until I see new grease coming out. The bearings are in good shape and the wheels spin freely when raised. The only problem is the red mystic #2 hi-temp grease (specifically recommended by trailer maker) is not locally available and I will have to find it somewhere.

 

[oilboy123]

I have read some on the China Goodyear trailer tires on some other sites and read some not too flattering things about them......
I have not even put mine on the trailer so I can't say one way or another. I also don't know if they are all made in China or what's going on with their manufacturing.

All I know is when I ordered them I thought they were made in the USA. So much for assuming.

 

[meep]

the sailboat story got me to reminiscing.... I know it's OT...

bought mine-- 22' searay cuddy cabin from a trucker who was never around, late on payments. insurance had done massive hull repairs, mostly cosmetic, when the hurricane hit the coast and our local winds beat it against the dock for 2 days. it have been wet-docked it's whole life, but dry for 6 months during repair.

Sea trial the driveline ran great, drove well. low batteries. impeller weak, bellows leaked, so we thought. He agreed to repair.

Drove back 1.5 hrs 2 weeks later after marina mechanic completed repair. he demonstrated the new impeller by running it with the i/o under but the outlet raised still on the lift, saw water pumping.

Signed check, me and a buddy get in boat.

It's gonna be 1.5 hr boat ride back to my marina. batteries weak (brought a spare). dark clouds above. air was humid, rich, soft. radio quit. what? bow light quit. what? gauges ok, engine running. Opened bilge-- over a foot of water. V-8 was taking a bath, belt slinging water-- and the battery switch is waaaaaay down there. crawl down there, set the switch to both, the lights are up, the radio is on, the bilge pumps awaken....

new impeller dies while waiting at the lock for 20 minutes, crusing in circles to keep water flowing.

Then it storms. the rain does not extinguish our cigars.

Back at the docks, the boat is taking on water. bilge runs with 90 second pauses. water coming in the transom. no trailer. borrow trailer that's too small. it's midnight. I want to cry.

dried transom had shrunk, engine had to be hoisted and bolts tightened between the split I/O. $$.

was generally reliable after that.

------------------------

On Topic-- the more often you run them, the better.

change your water separater.

plugs.. wires, check carb. does it have a choke? limited output without popping suggests running rich. make sure linkage is not gummy.

gauges could be a ground/power issue. normal for a boat.

I've been intimate with 2 bayliners. they used thinner glas than my searay, BUT were BETTER ASSEMBLED.

Mike

 

[RTexasF]

Those gauges were trouble prone in every Bayliner I ever sold that had them in it. I used to sell in excess of $1,000,000 of that brand alone annually back when we had an economy. If possible replace them (along with the sending units) with a decent brand. The fuel could well be contaminated but I suspect the carb needs an off engine servicing. How many were in the boat when you were trying to plane? The 175 has a small weight/person capacity. Was it an engine miss or an over rev? If over rev the prop hub might need to be replaced.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: RTexasF
Those gauges were trouble prone in every Bayliner I ever sold that had them in it. I used to sell in excess of $1,000,000 of that brand alone annually back when we had an economy. If possible replace them (along with the sending units) with a decent brand. The fuel could well be contaminated but I suspect the carb needs an off engine servicing. How many were in the boat when you were trying to plane? The 175 has a small weight/person capacity. Was it an engine miss or an over rev? If over rev the prop hub might need to be replaced.


Good info on the Faria gauges issues, just like I suspected. I ordered a couple of inexpensive non-faria gauges I could find. Not sure if compatible with existing senders.

I'm gradually draining old gas and using (diluted with fresh) in my cars. Will reevaluate in a few weeks. We had 7 people on board, the max load. But, the boat is surprisingly powerful and it used to go on plane and pull a skier with similar load before. Once I took off and went on plane with some minor difficulties. Only moments later I realized I was dragging an anchor (a small one to be fair).

Great idea about the hub. I had my SS prop tangled in dense weeds a couple of years ago and suspected at that time that hub could be damaged. But no problems since and I forgot about it. Any way to test for that? I still have my old OEM prop, so I could try to swap it I guess.

In case everything else fails I'll have the carb rebuilt.

 

[JimPghPA]

About the tires for your trailer.

Many, many, years ago (when I was little more than a kid myself) before trucking was as well regulated as it is now, one of the jobs at the fly by night cement company I worked for was to sometimes drive a flat-bed truck, 28ft bed, Ford, gas, no pivot between cab and bed. Anyhow on one of the hottest days of the summer they sent out an identical truck loaded with about 20 tons of rod-iron on a truck rated at 10 tons. The duel wheels single axle blew three out of four tires about 60 miles away on a cross state delivery. They told me to put 15 lbs over rated in all tires and be darn sure to do it, and where the disabled truck was. The mechanic would be about 1/2 hour behind me. I, the other driver, and 2 local teen-age boys and the mechanic after he showed up, transferred the load to my truck by hand, on one of the hottest days of the summer(not saying the name of the state but is is very near Pittsburgh PA). I then walked across the road to a lake and jumped in. Then I drove the load to its destination in wet clothes that seemed to soon dry (no AC in truck). After about 10 to 15 minutes the back of the truck would follow incorrectly like it was sliding sideways on ice. The rubber on the back tires was heating up so hot that it was sliding on the road (actually felt like it was on ice). That was my sign to pull over and sit 10 minutes for the tires to cool. No one had told me to do this, it was scary enough to not need anyone to tell me. Then I would travel again for 10 to 15 minutes until I had to cool the tires for another 10 minutes. I repeated this all the rest of the day until the sun went down and the tires no longer got hot enough to cause that problem. Along the way I had stopped to ask for directions and in backing up to turn around in a pitch black dirt parking lot the back wheels went over the end of the flat area (truck had no working reverse light, could not see a thing) as soon as the back wheels went over the edge the slope of the bank combined with the 20 tons of load made the back slide down into a stream. I had to get a tow truck to pull the truck out. I got a service with an extra large tow truck and told him to bring the biggest truck, but he brought a normal size one. The front of that truck had the front wheels 4 feet off the ground the first try. I took a shovel and dug out the ramp by my truck back tires to get a shallow slope and the tow worked the second time with my truck in granny low duel rear gear and low on 5 speed trany. When I got to the destination the crew for the large swimming pool construction was gone for the day and I had to sleep in the cab and discovered that my underclothes were still damp enough form the swim to make it an uncomfortable cold night for the first half of the night until they dried. The next morning the crew unloaded the truck, and I had to borrow $20 from the forman for gas because I had spent too much for the tow the night before.

On the way back I stopped at the truck weight stations with the empty truck. I missed those weight stations the day before because I was somewhat lost the night before and had taken back roads because of being somewhat lost. Pure dumb luck.

Anyhow, the point of this story is run your trailer tires at maximum pressure because the more they flex (when not at max pressure) the more they heat up and that can cause them to blow. The first truck did not have 15 over max (110+15 psi) and that is one of the reasons it blew 3 out of 4 back tires.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: JimPghPA

Anyhow, the point of this story is run your trailer tires at maximum pressure because the more they flex (when not at max pressure) the more they heat up and that can cause them to blow. The first truck did not have 15 over max (110+15 psi) and that is one of the reasons it blew 3 out of 4 back tires.


This made realize that then I started the trip, I pumped trailer tires to the max 50 psi and car tires to 40 psi (max is 44 psi).
But it was very hot at 100F or so at that time.

However, the tire burst when it was raining and the temp went down some, don't remember how much, but possibly down to mid 80's. Would that be enough to decrease the tire pressure and overheat the tire? At the same time the tire was obviously hot from driving itself.

The more I think about it, ideally, the tire pressure should be adjusted dynamically while driving (or on stops) based on temperature change and speed change (added air with ambient temp decrease and speed increase).

 

[friendly_jacek]

One more thing, using the same logic, driving in rain would require increasing pressure even more due to increased tire cooling and subsequent pressure drop.

Weird, but I recall reading many internet stories about bursting trailer tires during rain. Some people talk about rubber easier to cut when wet, but maybe there is more to that.

 

[RTexasF]

Quote:
We had 7 people on board, the max load.


The plate that states the number of people allowed also states the weight allowed aboard. It is an either/or rating. I don't recall the exact weight rating but it would only allow for 7 Cub Scouts, not 7 adults. You may have other problems but I believe you overloaded the boat first and foremost.

Pumping up the trailer tires to max on the sidewall is really a stupid move (no offense intended).....same with the car tires. Find out what PSI they are supposed to be at and keep them there. Nothing is accomplished by doing max PSI other than making the tires hard as a rock. The tow vehicle bounces more and handles worse, the trailer bounces all over the place and is more prone to a blowout. Absolutely and totally wrong, ESPECIALLY in high temps. There is no room for normal expansion so the PSI increases beyond the tires capacity.

 

[meep]

Originally Posted By: RTexasF
Quote:
We had 7 people on board, the max load.


The plate that states the number of people allowed also states the weight allowed aboard. It is an either/or rating. I don't recall the exact weight rating but it would only allow for 7 Cub Scouts, not 7 adults. You may have other problems but I believe you overloaded the boat first and foremost.

Pumping up the trailer tires to max on the sidewall is really a stupid move (no offense intended).....same with the car tires. Find out what PSI they are supposed to be at and keep them there. Nothing is accomplished by doing max PSI other than making the tires hard as a rock. The tow vehicle bounces more and handles worse, the trailer bounces all over the place and is more prone to a blowout. Absolutely and totally wrong, ESPECIALLY in high temps. There is no room for normal expansion so the PSI increases beyond the tires capacity.


IIRC that is the max COLD pressure, which means the oem expects higher pressures hot. therefore if you are within max rated load, at max cold psi, you are fine. that's why it's stamped on the tire. and, when approaching max load, you want max psi, as it a) keeps tire cooler b) resists hydroplaning c) resists trailer sway.

Yes, if you're at light load, max pressure can make the thing bounce around, and it can help to drop the psi.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: RTexasF
Quote:
We had 7 people on board, the max load.


The plate that states the number of people allowed also states the weight allowed aboard. It is an either/or rating. I don't recall the exact weight rating but it would only allow for 7 Cub Scouts, not 7 adults. You may have other problems but I believe you overloaded the boat first and foremost.

Pumping up the trailer tires to max on the sidewall is really a stupid move (no offense intended).....same with the car tires. Find out what PSI they are supposed to be at and keep them there. Nothing is accomplished by doing max PSI other than making the tires hard as a rock. The tow vehicle bounces more and handles worse, the trailer bounces all over the place and is more prone to a blowout. Absolutely and totally wrong, ESPECIALLY in high temps. There is no room for normal expansion so the PSI increases beyond the tires capacity.


RTexasF, you are jumping your gun (no offense intended).
There were 7 people, but only 3 adults (one man, and two petite women) and the rests children, so we were within the 825 lbs max limit.

Second, the trailer tires are rated at max 1360 lbs at 50 psi. As I explained above, the trailer/boat weight puts 100% (if not more) of that load on each tire. So tires WERE inflated correctly. I can tell you that there was no bouncing of the vehicle or trailer whatsoever.

And lastly, there has to be room for normal air expansion as the tires are inflated to nominal pressure COLD and pressure increases while tire heats up from driving. These are some very basic, common sense principles.