BMW M3 - Alternative to OE 0W-30 LL FE ?

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Of course there's no need. It's just one more feather in your cap if you have to make a warranty claim, if only a minor one.

I do not see any issue when it comes to warranty using any approved oil.


No there isn't an there can't be.

Agreed. Nor is there any issue when it comes to your engine, which is arguably even more important.

I'm not talking about what is or isn't technically acceptable. I'm saying it might grease the wheels on your claim. If there's ANY ambiguity in your case for whatever reason -- a lost receipt, bad data in the dealership's system, etc. -- there's a chance you might get some pushback from service personnel. Having used nothing but OE oils could give you a psychological edge in your interactions.

Not quite true. Dealership has to prove you used wrong oil. By the law from 1997 that was passed by Congress, dealerships cannot dispute warranty claims as long as approved oil was used. They need to prove that you did not use approved oil.
In Canada consumers have even better protection (that is pretty much in any sphere of life) and as long as OP can get 0W30 GC of the shelf I would do it.
I change oil every 5K and have one more free change (every 10K). So I put ESP 1500 miles ago (two weeks ago) and at 45K (still have 3800 miles) I will let dealership do oil change. After that (car is CPO until 01/2019 or 100,000 miles) I will use ESP because I know its specs and I know it meets MB 229.51 which is bit more stringent then BMW LL-04 when it comes to deposit control plus has less phosphorus and sulfated ash then BMW LL-04 (Mid-SAPS) but still meets LL-04 spec.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Originally Posted By: Shannow
il signore is correct...pumpable oil fills the galleries at exactly the same time.


You disagree with me and the Mobil engineers, OK fine. Evidence from you would be nice. Do you have any? ...................... Oil doesn't get everywhere as soon with thicker oil, so we minimize the time to reach all surfaces by running the thinnest oil at a given cold temperature we can.


Firstly, I thought it was the EM trobologists...now it's their engineers...I'd say it's neither, it's their advertising department.


OK, you're a mechanical engineer, so I will take that into consideration (I'm one too).

Firstly, the picture that you are hanging your hat on is a demonstration of the effect of the "W rating", not the 30 or 40 part.

The W rating is comprised of a high shear CCS (Cold Cranking Simulator), which is representative of an engine's ability to crank fast enough to start. The second is the MRV (Mini Rotary Viscometer), which simulates the oil's ability to flow into the pick-up...if it doesn't flow into the pick-up, it doesn't get pumped.

Here's the J300 specs for the viscosities, CCS and MRVs of oil gradings.

Look at the test temperatures for the CCS and MRV of the oil grades...the pumpability test for the 10W is -30C, the 5W -35, and the 0W -40.

Re the mobil advertisement, why specifically did they pick -32C (-25.6F) ?

It's not a standard test temperature, and -32 (or-25.6) aren't the sorts of thing that are used in common parlance...maybe it was a cherry picked temperature that best showed the effect on their cherry picked "competitor's" off the shelf oils....

When they say "filled" with the test oil, and parked overnight, a reasonable person would assume that the engine was started and primed before being placed in the test cell...they don't say that they did, and as it's an advertising puff piece, I would say that they didn't...it would maximise the effect that they wanted to show (incidentally at lower than the required test temperatures for the 10W anyway).

But this thread is about 0W30 versus 0W40. They both have the same requirement to be pumpable at -40C.

If the mobil tribologists engineers advertising department repeated the same test at -10C on those three oils, there would be virtually zero difference...particilarly if the engine was primed after the oil change...and what would it "prove" to advertising effect ?

Go back to my quote, is that if the oils are pumpable, they will fill the galleries at the same rate. The pump shifts the same volume every revolution, and is displacing air, which has virtually zero viscosity...the galleries will be filling at the same rate.

To demonstrate, here's something lifted from an engineering paper (not an advertisement) where the effect was tested...It's worth noting that in the various literature on starting, there is a vast difference in individual engine's ability to self prime and achieve oil pressure...submerged pumps are good, crank mounted pumps not so good.

Like I say...any oil above it's limits of pumpability will fill the galleries at the same rate (*)...there will be zero difference in the two oils mentioned in attaining filling and oil pressure.

(*)note, I'm talking in the 30,40, 50 range here, you're just as likely to come back with a mill ring gear strawman).

 

[bobbydavro]

Whilst the 0W-30 and 0W-40 being discussed here are very similar and there is no need to change in summer and winter

What if I told you the 0W-40 was a better than the 0W-30 at cold pump ability ? (only very small difference)

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
What if I told you the 0W-40 was a better than the 0W-30 at cold pump ability ? (only very small difference)

Good to know. What makes the 0w-40 better at cold pumpability? More VII? Or better base oil?

 

[AirgunSavant]

I'd use MPT Industries 30K 0W/40 oil if your budget allowed.
That said don't go looking for approvals

 

[SilverC6]

Is BMW using LL-01 5W-30 in the M4 until Shell gets them some thinner 0W-30?

I'm thinking earlier versions of this engine probably specified LL-01 5W-30 just like the most recent V8 M cars.

Personally, when I change the oil in my M6, I use Castrol 0W-40.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
What if I told you the 0W-40 was a better than the 0W-30 at cold pump ability ? (only very small difference)

Good to know. What makes the 0w-40 better at cold pumpability? More VII? Or better base oil?



Lighter base oil mix to allow for extra VII. MRV is about 1000 better in this case

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
What if I told you the 0W-40 was a better than the 0W-30 at cold pump ability ? (only very small difference)

Good to know. What makes the 0w-40 better at cold pumpability? More VII? Or better base oil?



Lighter base oil mix to allow for extra VII. MRV is about 1000 better in this case

Since you are castrol insider, tell your folks to send Castrol 0W30 LL-04 across the pond

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
What if I told you the 0W-40 was a better than the 0W-30 at cold pump ability ? (only very small difference)

Good to know. What makes the 0w-40 better at cold pumpability? More VII? Or better base oil?



Lighter base oil mix to allow for extra VII. MRV is about 1000 better in this case

I don't know whats worse: slightly worse cold pumpability or more VII.

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
What if I told you the 0W-40 was a better than the 0W-30 at cold pump ability ? (only very small difference)

Good to know. What makes the 0w-40 better at cold pumpability? More VII? Or better base oil?



Lighter base oil mix to allow for extra VII. MRV is about 1000 better in this case

I don't know whats worse: slightly worse cold pumpability or more VII.

I'll always say VII. If VIIs see enough extremes of cold and hot they'll break down much faster than base oil would that can cause slightly worse cold pumpability.

 

[bobbydavro]

We are comparing 12.2 with 13 here. VII treat is tiny and these are good VMs with no negative aspect of having more

The 0W-40 will have passed all the piston deposit tests anyway.

Don't read into things too much about VII being bad, sure a 0W-40 needs more than a 0W-30 but we are talking about ~10% more polymer solids.

So in reality, there is no need to chose either 0W-40 or 0W-30. Both will perform

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Lighter base oil mix to allow for extra VII. MRV is about 1000 better in this case

That was a very interesting piece of information. While proprietary stuff cannot be divulged, it is nice to hear an insider comment once in a while, particularly a little piece of trivia that goes against the conventional wisdom. Thanks again!

In light of Quattro's Pete's comment about pumpability and VIIs, I do have to give Castrol a hard time about one thing. The pour point of Castrol 5w-30 A3/B4 is appallingly high for a climate like mine, unless Wakefield's sheet is "weird" as many of them are. I know that MRV and CCS are far, far more important than pour point, but what selling point is there for that product over Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 for an eccentric like myself?

Keep in mind my question is mainly academic. I have no concerns using 5w-XX conventional in this climate, and we're all well aware of what those pour points can look like. And, if I were a real pour point fanatic, there are plenty of choices.

 

[bobbydavro]

What is the point point of that one ?

 

[Garak]

It's -36 C, according to the Canadian data sheet.

 

[bobbydavro]

It's a strange one as the MRV is still strong at -35C. So it's ok to be a 5W.

There are some reasons and it may come down to -39C in the future.

Still not ideal I guess ?

 

[Garak]

Well, it just seemed off, that's all I thought. The 5w-30 C3 is a little lower, with respect to pour point, and then, of course, we know that certain things like GC 0w-30 are in another ballpark altogether.

It certainly does still qualify for a 5w-XX oil, and considering I've used all kinds of 5w-XX conventionals in our winters, the 5w-30 A3/B4 wouldn't bother me terribly much. I still find it remarkable that Castrol has so many A3/B4 choices readily available on the shelf up here, even at small stores.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Garak
In light of Quattro's Pete's comment about pumpability and VIIs, I do have to give Castrol a hard time about one thing. The pour point of Castrol 5w-30 A3/B4 is appallingly high for a climate like mine, unless Wakefield's sheet is "weird" as many of them are. I know that MRV and CCS are far, far more important than pour point, but what selling point is there for that product over Mobil Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 for an eccentric like myself?


LOL, that's my favourite oil in Oz ATM (pity it's not a 10W30, j/k)...-36 gets me anywhere in Australia with about 20C to spare.

 

[bobbydavro]

It would be a 10W-30 if it used [censored] base oil

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
It would be a 10W-30 if it used [censored] base oil

Yeah, all the 10W30 A3/B4 are blends here...that's why Edge 5W30 A3/B4 is my favourite.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
LOL, that's my favourite oil in Oz ATM (pity it's not a 10W30, j/k)...-36 gets me anywhere in Australia with about 20C to spare.

Well, it will still work handily here. It's just a good option for those who have to use an LL oil (or whatever Euro spec) and then insist on a certain SAE grade. At least Castrol has everything from 0w-30 up to 5w-40 covered in Euro specs in Canada, whether we need them or not.