Definitely. Tesla was the first automotive manufacturer that wasn't required to work with a local manufacturer.
BMW EV China sales; not good
- Thread starter JeffKeryk
- Start date
From reading bmw builds its evs for the Chinese market in China.
Chinese buying China made EVs over foreign, who would’ve thought that could happen? I’m shocked I tell you, who do they think they are?
There's more to it than that.
BMW EVs and traditional combustion vehicles are struggling in China due to:
- aggressive domestic competitors
- falling premium market demand
- current BMW EV models are mostly converted ICE platforms lacking dedicated EV architecture
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
We've been over this it feels like 100 times. CLAR was not a "converted ICE platform", it was designed, from inception, to be multi-powertrain, which included EV/HEV/PHEV/ICE. Neue Klasse carries on this same philosophy, simply with more attention given to the EV use case.
Secondly, the iX WAS in fact built on a dedicated EV platform.
Ford "converted" (quite successfully, relatively speaking) an ICE platform (Escape) for the Mach-E. Ford has multiple platforms and architectures, as does GM, Stellantis, Honda, Toyota...etc. This shouldn't be unexpected for companies shipping multiple powertrain configurations and options (unlike Tesla, Rivian...etc).
I highly doubt that the use of CLAR for the i4 had any meaningful impact on sales in China. Domestic competition, and prices of that domestic competition, is likely the primary driver here.
Perhaps do some research; I did. I did not pull my post our of my hat...
The CLAR is, at best, a compromise. A pure play approach makes a better product. The CLAR is hardly an efficient EV product.
BMW is phasing out CLAR based electric models in the China markets and a shifting towards newer platforms like the Neue Klasse, which are specifically designed for electric vehicles.
But each to his/her own.
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However I've found articles where the Chinese are starting to favor "Made in China " just like we push for "Made in the USA ".
I'm sure you are right and this is part of the BMW troubles. But what's funny is, BMW has a significant manufacturing presence in China, not to mention engineering.
A bit overboard, Tesla experiences much of the same trouble here in the USA. 2025 sales down 8.6% Market share down about the same 8%. Meanwhile BMW hit their highest ever sales numbers in the USA and 3rd record year of continued sales growth vs Telsa 3 years of declines. https://www.greenville.com/news/202...ica-reports-full-year-2025-u-s-sales-results/
BMW China 2025 sales down 12.5% Tesla China sales down 4.78%
Not sure what they can do, luxury cars in China are possibly not as much a status symbol however, just because this moment in time a downturn who knows what will happen. Though we already know China is here to dominate the world and road block everything they can from outsiders.
Just drawing comparisons which is a bit out of whack as we are comparing a luxury brand BMW against Tesla. Two different markets.
But it does show how market forces change in different countries.
BTW Tesla China sales down 7.87% so far this year 2026.
(Im sure many do not know this do to lack of transparency)
https://cnevpost.com/2026/06/08/tesla-ends-two-month-retail-slump-china-may-2026/
BMW China 2025 sales down 12.5% Tesla China sales down 4.78%
Not sure what they can do, luxury cars in China are possibly not as much a status symbol however, just because this moment in time a downturn who knows what will happen. Though we already know China is here to dominate the world and road block everything they can from outsiders.
Just drawing comparisons which is a bit out of whack as we are comparing a luxury brand BMW against Tesla. Two different markets.
But it does show how market forces change in different countries.
BTW Tesla China sales down 7.87% so far this year 2026.
(Im sure many do not know this do to lack of transparency)
https://cnevpost.com/2026/06/08/tesla-ends-two-month-retail-slump-china-may-2026/
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Bro, you JUST claimed CLAR was a "converted ICE" platform. Now you are telling me to "do some research". This feels like the anti-vax toilet mom meme manifest.
We've been over this. You continue to make the same erroneous claim. How am I supposed to take what you post seriously when you continue to do this?
Because it's a multi-powertrain platform, which was the point. Being a compromise is necessary in that context.
The iX was a "Pure Play" EV platform. How were its sales in China?
That wasn't the argument being made.
Neue Klasse is more of a "design philosophy", than a platform. Or I suppose it could be argued that it's a technology platform, developed with enabling the integration of modern powertrains in a more seamless manner and applied to both dedicated EV products, and CLAR-based vehicles. "Neue Klasse" tech will be part of non-EV BMW's going forward.
NCAR (the Neue Klasse platform) and "Neue Klasse" get used interchangeably, which is understandable, but what I've garnered is that while Neue Klasse brings with it NCAR as a dedicated EV platform, the Neue Klasse approach will be applied across the board for that consistency in tech, experience and design language that people expect from the brand. So whether a vehicle is underpinned by NCAR or CLAR, it will be "Neue Klasse" in terms of design language and experience.
The first NCAR-based vehicles, as noted in the linked article, will be "value focused" or "bread and butter" BMW offerings, intended to drive sales. This is not just for China, but globally. These should be less expensive to manufacture than CLAR-based EV's. CLAR will continue to be used for some of the upscale offerings, at least for the foreseeable future.
Your assertion was not subjective, it was flat-out wrong, and we've gone over this many times, there is no "to each their own" in that context. CLAR is not a "converted ICE platform" no matter how many times you say it.
CLAR was originally designed and released as a flexible foundation for combustion engines.
Here's the CLAR platform history:
- Origin (2015): Originally dubbed "35up" internally, the architecture was officially renamed CLAR (Cluster Architecture). The primary goal was to group components into adaptable "clusters" (chassis, body structure, electronics) to scale easily across different wheelbases.
- Debut (2015): The platform made its debut in the flagship G11 BMW 7 Series. It set a new benchmark for lightweight construction, integrating a mix of high-strength steel, aluminum, and optional carbon fiber (the "Carbon Core").
- Electrification Phase (2020+): Initially built primarily for gas and diesel cars with mild-hybrid options, CLAR was progressively updated to accommodate heavier battery packs. It allowed BMW to create popular "conversion" EVs like the i4 and iX3 by placing batteries where gas tanks and exhaust systems traditionally went.
Future:
- Continued Usage: Heavily updated versions of the CLAR platform (sometimes referred to as CLAR II) will continue to underpin high-performance and internal combustion vehicles through the 2030s.
- The Electric Era (Neue Klasse): BMW is rolling out the Neue Klasse architecture—a dedicated electric-first platform. Moving forward, many of BMW’s core EVs (like the next-generation i3, i5, and iX3) will migrate to Neue Klasse, while CLAR continues to host the gas and hybrid variants.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
That looks like an AI answer Jeff.
Quoting myself from 4 years ago:
Back in 2017:
Again, it was always designed to be a platform compatible with multiple powertrains, including fully electric, which you and I have discussed MULTIPLE TIMES in past threads, including me linking you to the same bloody post I just linked above.
The likelihood of BMW releasing a pure EV platform is very low since they still need to produce ICE powered vehicles and a dedicated EV platform is simply too expensive for relatively low sales. It would likely erase the already slim EV margins.
Notice they themselves say “EV first platform” not “EV exclusive”. It’s typical corporate double speak to mask that it’s nothing more than a re-designed and improved old platform meant for all of their offerings.
Manufacturers have gotten extremely good at marketing their offerings as “All new design” or “ground up design” because that’s what customers and shareholders want to hear. But as a matter of fact, almost nothing is new, it’s all tweaked and re-designed old stuff, especially in the last 15 years or so with the shared platforms.
These platforms are expected to have a roughly 10 year lifespan, so this “Neue Klasse” platform is right on time with new and grand sounding marketing slogans.
Notice they themselves say “EV first platform” not “EV exclusive”. It’s typical corporate double speak to mask that it’s nothing more than a re-designed and improved old platform meant for all of their offerings.
Manufacturers have gotten extremely good at marketing their offerings as “All new design” or “ground up design” because that’s what customers and shareholders want to hear. But as a matter of fact, almost nothing is new, it’s all tweaked and re-designed old stuff, especially in the last 15 years or so with the shared platforms.
These platforms are expected to have a roughly 10 year lifespan, so this “Neue Klasse” platform is right on time with new and grand sounding marketing slogans.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
It's an interesting strategy, as there does seem to be a new "skateboard" (NCAR) with a design primarily focused, at least initially, on EV's, but the rest of "Neue Klasse" will be shared across their offerings, regardless of what powers them, and that includes vehicles that will remain based on CLAR (like large luxury SUV's). That's why I referred to it as a technology platform in an earlier post.
The iX, which has never sold well, was built on a bespoke EV-only platform, that's why I mentioned it a couple of times. This did not magically make the vehicle a success. It was big, ugly, and expensive. While inside was actually quite nice (I've driven one), with the flat floors and EV-focused design language, it was not something a lot of people were willing to part with their money to own.
It makes sense for an automaker that needs to still produce other types of vehicles, not just EVs, especially since EV demand is highly volatile.
And as you pointed out, having a dedicated EV platform doesn’t guarantee success, there is obviously more to it than just having a dedicated platform.
But I also get Jeff’s point because many manufacturers rushed to the EV market by repurposing their existing ICE platforms which obviously resulted in heavy compromises and the results were half baked. But there is a big difference between that and actually designing a platform for both types of drive methods.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes, exactly! Ford's approach with the Mach-E was repurposing the platform the Escape was built on, and, even with the compromises, it has been reasonably popular. I haven't seen mention that this platform was designed with potential EV use, so it would fit Jeff's "repurposed ICE platform" claim I think.
CLAR was designed, from inception, to be sufficiently flexible to be able to handle all potential powertrain configurations, including EV. But there was not a strong EV focus with it; EV was not the "bread and butter" configuration, due to the state of things at the time. BMW had the foresight to include it, as part of development, but that was along with ICE and PHEV compatibility.
If we look at the new Stellantis LB platform, that the Charger is shipping on, it was designed to be EV/PHEV/ICE, but with a strong focus on EV, hence the initial release.
Honestly, I think it mostly comes down to how well a particular platform can accept a pretty large battery pack with all the required heating and cooling that goes along with it. The electric motors don’t need much room at all.
So something like an Escape platform probably had enough room for a good sized battery, vs Toyotas tnga platform, which is used for all sorts of sizes of vehicles.
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