Hey guys, I was at the Pontiac dealer at the parts and I was reading about this Bilstein oil flush in which heated flush additive is added through the oil filter hole and it's vacumed out through the oil pan drain. They charge $150 for this service. What do you guys think of this. How does this compare to the Auto-RX everybody talks about?
bilstein oil flush vs. Auto-RX?
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i am familiar with a similar system that was made by envirolution. $150 is way too much for this service. the jiffy lube i worked for charged $70 + the oil change so it came out to about $100.
I dont know exacts of how well it cleans the engine but the filter that got changed every time seemed to have junk in it, i never took one apart. the fluid is a petroleum based so if some gets left in the engine its not going to hurt anything. i have found that it does pull the majority of the old oil that sits in the bottom of the pan after the oil change out.
I dont know exacts of how well it cleans the engine but the filter that got changed every time seemed to have junk in it, i never took one apart. the fluid is a petroleum based so if some gets left in the engine its not going to hurt anything. i have found that it does pull the majority of the old oil that sits in the bottom of the pan after the oil change out.
The Bilstein does an excellent job of cleaning. I do feel that it does have a leaning toward being a snake oil product though because to pay for the machine it is necessary to sell the service far more often than it is really needed.
I have seen engines torn down shortly after a cleaning and they were exceptionally clean. Engines that you could easily tell were very dirty from deposits visible thru the oil fill hole before the cleaning.
I even remember a Ranger 2.3 with the oil light on presumed from a cloged oil pump pick up screen that had the oil flow restored from the cleaning.
I guess the most morally difficult sale I heard about with the Bilstein was when the flush was sold with the first oil change "to get rid of all those metal break in shavings".
It does a good job, but the tendency is to oversell it.
I have seen engines torn down shortly after a cleaning and they were exceptionally clean. Engines that you could easily tell were very dirty from deposits visible thru the oil fill hole before the cleaning.
I even remember a Ranger 2.3 with the oil light on presumed from a cloged oil pump pick up screen that had the oil flow restored from the cleaning.
I guess the most morally difficult sale I heard about with the Bilstein was when the flush was sold with the first oil change "to get rid of all those metal break in shavings".
It does a good job, but the tendency is to oversell it.
In fleet use the biggest problem for high mileage engines is keeping things clean. I'm just not sure that one can put enough cleaning and TBN support additives in an oil to keep up. If you can support cleaning and keep the TBN up there the oil can continue to do a good job. So, clean is important. Auto-RX works because it deep cleans and is allowed time to get after the crud. Shock treatments might be risky for some engines but a shop has to get you in and out. They don't have time for something like Auto-RX, no matter how well it works. Their opinion will be clouded by the fact that quicker is better for them. Same thing with keeping the oil working. A good solution is an ounce of Lube Control every thousand miles. But the owner/driver has to do it, and most people will just forget, present company excepted. It is very possible that cleaning with Auto-RX, yourself, and adding Lube Control every thousand miles will give you a cleaner, better running engine over the long haul and prove to be worth the extra effort. Having a shock treatment cleaning and expecting an additive that is added only at the oil change is just expedient and designed to work at the shop, at their convience. It all comes down to a choice. It's just that some don't get all the information and that could effect their decision.
$150 will buy a crap load of AutoRx, good dino oil, AND synthetic oil after it's clean!
Considering most of us don't like the idea of flushing our transmissions with a machine.....why use a machine to clean the engine?
I choose one of the following regimens depending on the situation and what I have on hand at the time. For a quick engine flush, I use Gold Eagle or Amsoil engine flush and run engine just above idle for 15 minutes or so. For a 500-1000 mile flush I use Lube Control at 1-2 oz. per quart with new dino oil and filter. For longer term cleaning, I use AutoRx and follow the directions, sometimes even 2 or 3 full cycles for very neglected engines, usually using a HDEO on the rinse cycle. It's not a cure-all, just one of the options that has worked when I used it. I had less noticeable improvements when I used ARX on a very well maintained vehicle that has always used synthetic engine oil at reasonable OCI's, which is what I sort of expected before I used it on that car.
I don't like the idea of the flush machine, especially considering the cost. I would have to give my vote to the AutoRX on this one. Yes, it takes a little while to see results and you have to follow the directions somewhat, requiring patience while it does it's job. That crap didn't get into the engine overnight. I have seen it make real improvements for compression and oil consumption issues on several vehicles. Pablo, I'm with you on that idea!
I don't like the idea of the flush machine, especially considering the cost. I would have to give my vote to the AutoRX on this one. Yes, it takes a little while to see results and you have to follow the directions somewhat, requiring patience while it does it's job. That crap didn't get into the engine overnight. I have seen it make real improvements for compression and oil consumption issues on several vehicles. Pablo, I'm with you on that idea!
I actually had this done once a few years ago. It was done at an Express Lube. I had brought the car in for a regular oil change but the owner of the oil change place was so proud of his new flush machine that I decided to try it.
I was able to stand right in front of the car and flushing machine while they did this. Drained the crankcase and filled the car with conventional bulk Havoline 10w30. The feed line from the machine connected where the filter goes and the drain line to the drain plug hole. The cleaning agent was added to a metering device built into the machine.
Primed the machine with oil, started the car and I got to watch the whole process which took about 20 minutes. The flushing machine itself had a replaceable built in filter for the oil that I could watch build up with crud coming out of the engine. Once the solvent had been exhausted then they drained the crankcase and machine and refilled with conventional bulk and ran it again to clear out the solvent for about 5 minutes before draining that out.
This all followed up with a fill of Havoline synthetic and a new filter and cost about 105 bucks with tax.
At the time the car had about 45k on it and always saw 3 - 5k OCIs with Havoline conventional. Almost all city driving. I bought it with 32k on it and after this treatment the car ran smoother and with more power than it did when I bought it.
At the time I thought it was worth it (after the fact, wasn't sure while he talked me into doing it). I remember sitting at a stop light and I couldn't hear the engine idling. This was a SOHC 1.8L I4 that always made enough noise to be heard with the radio off.
Dunno if I'd do it again but it certaintly didn't hurt anything even though it was fairly expensive. Nowadays though I see Super Lube in my area advertising an engine flush (add flush, idle for 10 min and drain, no machine attached) + conventional oil change for ~50 bucks before tax. So really, with all the work Express Lube did with a total of 3 oil changes (one of which was a synthetic fill), flush and the use of the machine it wasn't that expensive unless you're a DIY'fer. Doubt it's that cheap anymore. Like the OP said it's around 150 now for the service and they may not be as complete as the place that did mine. After all, the owner himself was doing it.
If done properly I'd say a good reason to have this done is if you're not anal about the "horrendous" damage that an engine flush may do to an engine and want it clean NOW. Like anything in life you pay more for instant gratification. Kinda like ordering pizza vs. buying pre-made from a grocery or even making your own.
Now that I think of it I'd probably pay for this service again if I ever need to throroughly clear out an engine that may be badly sludged but don't want to open up the engine. Auto-RX may be safer but there are some situations where you don't have 5000 miles and the time for a treatment and rinse x 2.
[ December 03, 2005, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Fastride95 ]
I was able to stand right in front of the car and flushing machine while they did this. Drained the crankcase and filled the car with conventional bulk Havoline 10w30. The feed line from the machine connected where the filter goes and the drain line to the drain plug hole. The cleaning agent was added to a metering device built into the machine.
Primed the machine with oil, started the car and I got to watch the whole process which took about 20 minutes. The flushing machine itself had a replaceable built in filter for the oil that I could watch build up with crud coming out of the engine. Once the solvent had been exhausted then they drained the crankcase and machine and refilled with conventional bulk and ran it again to clear out the solvent for about 5 minutes before draining that out.
This all followed up with a fill of Havoline synthetic and a new filter and cost about 105 bucks with tax.
At the time the car had about 45k on it and always saw 3 - 5k OCIs with Havoline conventional. Almost all city driving. I bought it with 32k on it and after this treatment the car ran smoother and with more power than it did when I bought it.
At the time I thought it was worth it (after the fact, wasn't sure while he talked me into doing it). I remember sitting at a stop light and I couldn't hear the engine idling. This was a SOHC 1.8L I4 that always made enough noise to be heard with the radio off.
Dunno if I'd do it again but it certaintly didn't hurt anything even though it was fairly expensive. Nowadays though I see Super Lube in my area advertising an engine flush (add flush, idle for 10 min and drain, no machine attached) + conventional oil change for ~50 bucks before tax. So really, with all the work Express Lube did with a total of 3 oil changes (one of which was a synthetic fill), flush and the use of the machine it wasn't that expensive unless you're a DIY'fer. Doubt it's that cheap anymore. Like the OP said it's around 150 now for the service and they may not be as complete as the place that did mine. After all, the owner himself was doing it.
If done properly I'd say a good reason to have this done is if you're not anal about the "horrendous" damage that an engine flush may do to an engine and want it clean NOW. Like anything in life you pay more for instant gratification. Kinda like ordering pizza vs. buying pre-made from a grocery or even making your own.
Now that I think of it I'd probably pay for this service again if I ever need to throroughly clear out an engine that may be badly sludged but don't want to open up the engine. Auto-RX may be safer but there are some situations where you don't have 5000 miles and the time for a treatment and rinse x 2.
[ December 03, 2005, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Fastride95 ]
$150 buys a lot of oil and filters. What an idea! Change your oil and filter more frequently and need nothing. Or, use a synthetic!
And, members here complain about the prices of certain sponsors' products which sound like a steal compared to the $150.
Without a running engine, those "through filter mount and drainplug" flushes will only clean the oil flow passages and sump.
Yep, they don't clean anywhere else since engine is off.
But, its a good way to unclog oil filter screens and oil passages.
I see it only being effective if you do a normal 10 minute flush prior to that machine flush. Get all the crud dissolved into your oil and possibly clog your oil pump pickup, then use the machine to clean the passages if the engine hasn't seized yet(assuming there was a ton of sludge to begin with).....
http://www.redwoodgeneral.com/images/engine_anim2.gif
And, members here complain about the prices of certain sponsors' products which sound like a steal compared to the $150.
Without a running engine, those "through filter mount and drainplug" flushes will only clean the oil flow passages and sump.
Yep, they don't clean anywhere else since engine is off.
But, its a good way to unclog oil filter screens and oil passages.
I see it only being effective if you do a normal 10 minute flush prior to that machine flush. Get all the crud dissolved into your oil and possibly clog your oil pump pickup, then use the machine to clean the passages if the engine hasn't seized yet(assuming there was a ton of sludge to begin with).....
http://www.redwoodgeneral.com/images/engine_anim2.gif
THIS IS A SOLVENT BASED SYSTEM AND REMEBER THAT IN A DRAIN YOU NEVER GET IT ALL OUT. AUTO-RX IS A LOT SAFER FOR YOUR CAR AND THE ENVIORMENT AND CLEANS YOUR ENGINE GUARANTEED. CLEAN WHILE YOU DRIVE IS THE BEST WAY TO DO IT.
Auto-Rx is not only safer it works, what situation could you have that Auto-Rx working as you drive is a detrement? the first bottle of Auto-Rx immeadiately starts liquifying the "crud'.There is no chance of plugging up a piston port or oil screen with Auto-Rx. There is nothing to thin out your oil after Auto-Rx.What you want is the engine clean and thats what we do safely.
BIG differences and why Auto-RX was developed in the first place.
1) traditional chemical solvents heated or not INTERFERE with BOTH the hydrodynamic and extreme pressure/barrier lubrication films. AUTO-RX solvency is lubricious. So why it cleans DEEPLY it also lubricates.
2)Traditonal solvents like that mentioned here INTERFERE with the lubricant chemistry. Auto-Rx uses it as a vehicle to get to the deposits WITHOUT harming the host oil. Inert is a good description of the Auto-RX chemistry.
3) Auto-RX just needs a fresh oil filter to capture the disbursed carbon and contaminants and can be used in clean and dirty oil while you drive, not sit and idle for a hour in the shop.
4) Auto-RX is completely safe non hazardous chemistry to YOU, animals,kids,car. Frank the inventor suffers from chemical caused cancers ( from long term chemical solvents exposure) and designed an effective cleaner,lubricious, and safe so you won't suffer as he has.
5) Auto-RX is also heat activated and cleans in stages at the high heat/pressure areas that impact engine performance, not just stripping off EP activated staining from CCV gas flows, that make you feel better when viewing but do nothing to improve CC seal.
Do a search on comments from myself, Molakule,rick20 to get professionals views of the chemistry.
Sincerely, Terry Dyson
Owner and Chief Tribologist Dyson Analysis.
1) traditional chemical solvents heated or not INTERFERE with BOTH the hydrodynamic and extreme pressure/barrier lubrication films. AUTO-RX solvency is lubricious. So why it cleans DEEPLY it also lubricates.
2)Traditonal solvents like that mentioned here INTERFERE with the lubricant chemistry. Auto-Rx uses it as a vehicle to get to the deposits WITHOUT harming the host oil. Inert is a good description of the Auto-RX chemistry.
3) Auto-RX just needs a fresh oil filter to capture the disbursed carbon and contaminants and can be used in clean and dirty oil while you drive, not sit and idle for a hour in the shop.
4) Auto-RX is completely safe non hazardous chemistry to YOU, animals,kids,car. Frank the inventor suffers from chemical caused cancers ( from long term chemical solvents exposure) and designed an effective cleaner,lubricious, and safe so you won't suffer as he has.
5) Auto-RX is also heat activated and cleans in stages at the high heat/pressure areas that impact engine performance, not just stripping off EP activated staining from CCV gas flows, that make you feel better when viewing but do nothing to improve CC seal.
Do a search on comments from myself, Molakule,rick20 to get professionals views of the chemistry.
Sincerely, Terry Dyson
Owner and Chief Tribologist Dyson Analysis.
Please don't take this the wrong way but I just don't understand some of the statements that have been made.
First, if AutoRx begins liquifying crud on contact, why does it take so long to clean? I'm not meaning to question it's effectiveness, it's just that sounds kinda paradoxical.
Second, if AutoRx's chemestry is inert, how is it removing/liquifying sludge? It's got to be reactive in some form or fashion with hydrocarbons. Otherwise what is is doing?
Third, with regard to the health and environmental safty of solvents, if they are disposed of properly (as with used engine oil), what are they really hurting? Even some of the so-called harsh solvents like chemtool and seafoam aren't listed as carcinogenic even though used engine oil supposedly is. I don't think there's a serious exposure risk from simply pouring them in your crankcase.
I'm sorry if this came off the wrong way but perhaps it's just that to the layman like myself, some of the statements on this site about AutoRx seem a little perplexing. Not to mention the fact that many times when someone brings up that autorx didn't really clean things up, they are immediately accused of having done the process wrong or told things like "it's not gonna fix a broken engine."
Now, that being said, I am willing to try anything, and just so no one thinks this is just an attack, I must tell you I have autorx in my oil RIGHT NOW! I'm about 500 miles from being done with my first cleaning cycle. So, I am willing to give it a fair try, I just am curious about some of these statements.
First, if AutoRx begins liquifying crud on contact, why does it take so long to clean? I'm not meaning to question it's effectiveness, it's just that sounds kinda paradoxical.
Second, if AutoRx's chemestry is inert, how is it removing/liquifying sludge? It's got to be reactive in some form or fashion with hydrocarbons. Otherwise what is is doing?
Third, with regard to the health and environmental safty of solvents, if they are disposed of properly (as with used engine oil), what are they really hurting? Even some of the so-called harsh solvents like chemtool and seafoam aren't listed as carcinogenic even though used engine oil supposedly is. I don't think there's a serious exposure risk from simply pouring them in your crankcase.
I'm sorry if this came off the wrong way but perhaps it's just that to the layman like myself, some of the statements on this site about AutoRx seem a little perplexing. Not to mention the fact that many times when someone brings up that autorx didn't really clean things up, they are immediately accused of having done the process wrong or told things like "it's not gonna fix a broken engine."
Now, that being said, I am willing to try anything, and just so no one thinks this is just an attack, I must tell you I have autorx in my oil RIGHT NOW! I'm about 500 miles from being done with my first cleaning cycle. So, I am willing to give it a fair try, I just am curious about some of these statements.
I've never seen a machine flush a transmission. I have seen machines that are nothing more than a two chamber reservoir. The transmission's own pump pumps dirty ATF out the cooler line into one chamber of the reservoir, and the diaphragm or piston is displaced and pushes new ATF back through the cooler return line.
Why use a machine to flush an engine?...LarryL said it, "...a shop has to get you in and out. They don't have time for something like Auto-RX, no matter how well it works. Their opinion will be clouded by the fact that quicker is better for them."
Ken
Bilstein/Wynns/BG/Motorvac.....are professionals too and their opinions might differ.
I just don't care for the non-engine running Bilstein flush compared to the others that allow the engine to run from 5-30 minutes depending on the shop and amount they're willing to charge. I don't see how harm can be done since there is no load on the engine, some machines actually monitor oil pressure, and the motor oil(with all its AW/EP additives) is still there(although diluted with the solvent).
Fastride's experience is the preferred method but rare. Most tech's are rushed and competition cuts into the margin. Shortcuts exist. The issue is whether you can trust the shop to do it correctly. I DON'T!
Not everyone cares whether something is non-hazardous or not. EVERY fluid in my car is toxic and recycled when changed. I wear gloves. Do I care if the flush product is? Nope!
Most machines vacuum/purge the engine removing more oil then what a normal oil change would. Any residual solvent isn't an issue.
I won't overhype engine machine flushes. But, they work if done correctly with the better machines.
I also don't see how one product can do something that nothing else can. Sorry, I got an instant average 10 psi increase in compression using an OTC flush. I guess that my 'CC seal' was improved. None of my seals were damaged and oil consumption was reduced. That engine is still on the road today with over 300k miles.
And, with the running engine machine flushes, if any engine has a buildup that reduces the "CC seal", then as the buildup is removed, they'd get the same improvement.
I just don't care for the non-engine running Bilstein flush compared to the others that allow the engine to run from 5-30 minutes depending on the shop and amount they're willing to charge. I don't see how harm can be done since there is no load on the engine, some machines actually monitor oil pressure, and the motor oil(with all its AW/EP additives) is still there(although diluted with the solvent).
Fastride's experience is the preferred method but rare. Most tech's are rushed and competition cuts into the margin. Shortcuts exist. The issue is whether you can trust the shop to do it correctly. I DON'T!
Not everyone cares whether something is non-hazardous or not. EVERY fluid in my car is toxic and recycled when changed. I wear gloves. Do I care if the flush product is? Nope!
Most machines vacuum/purge the engine removing more oil then what a normal oil change would. Any residual solvent isn't an issue.
I won't overhype engine machine flushes. But, they work if done correctly with the better machines.
I also don't see how one product can do something that nothing else can. Sorry, I got an instant average 10 psi increase in compression using an OTC flush. I guess that my 'CC seal' was improved. None of my seals were damaged and oil consumption was reduced. That engine is still on the road today with over 300k miles.
And, with the running engine machine flushes, if any engine has a buildup that reduces the "CC seal", then as the buildup is removed, they'd get the same improvement.
Speaking for myself, I'm getting tired of being jumped on with "why use that product when Auto-RX does it so much better, etc.." followed by the impending cry of doom if I should continue to use my current methods or speak of thing that have worked in the past.
Auto-RX is great. I will probably try it someday. In the meantime this is a msg board dedicated to discussing oils, additives, different system that can be used in automobiles and so forth. ALL oils, additives, different systems and methods.
Thanks.
__________
Agreed, unDummy! My experience was most likely due to the fact that the owner himself was doing the flush treatment. Anyone else that has this done may want to be sure they have the time to monitor the process vs. leaving their vehicle to a technician they know nothing about.
Auto-RX is great. I will probably try it someday. In the meantime this is a msg board dedicated to discussing oils, additives, different system that can be used in automobiles and so forth. ALL oils, additives, different systems and methods.
Thanks.
__________
Agreed, unDummy! My experience was most likely due to the fact that the owner himself was doing the flush treatment. Anyone else that has this done may want to be sure they have the time to monitor the process vs. leaving their vehicle to a technician they know nothing about.
I have not tried Auto-RX. My only exposure to the product is what I have read here. It sounds reasonable and if I have a need I may try it.
I do have experience around the flushing machines, particularly the Bilstein. I know first hand that they work and work well. Sometimes one of the line technicians would perform a flush on a very dirty engine prior to tear down just to make it easier to work on so I have seen some extremely dirty engines as witnessed by what you could see down the oil fill hole that cleaned up extremely well.
The better machines do a good job. I still have reservations about how often the service is sold.
Also, at least some of the trans flushing machines do use their own pump and perform the service without the engine running. Some of the better ones permit you to suck the fluid out of the trans making it easier to remove the pan to change the filter prior to refilling it.
I do have experience around the flushing machines, particularly the Bilstein. I know first hand that they work and work well. Sometimes one of the line technicians would perform a flush on a very dirty engine prior to tear down just to make it easier to work on so I have seen some extremely dirty engines as witnessed by what you could see down the oil fill hole that cleaned up extremely well.
The better machines do a good job. I still have reservations about how often the service is sold.
Also, at least some of the trans flushing machines do use their own pump and perform the service without the engine running. Some of the better ones permit you to suck the fluid out of the trans making it easier to remove the pan to change the filter prior to refilling it.
I found a Bilstein machine at a Saab dealer. I'll probally do it in the Spring, followed by light ARX dose.
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