Big problem with hard oil build up inside of engin

[fastmark]

I am brand new to this board and need some help fast. I have many years of engine building experience and am no stranger to oil related problems. Oil has changed many times since I started my car related activities 40 years ago.
Here is my problem. The car is a 2000 Dodge Carvan we bought new and have change the oil regularly at 3000 miles. We do live in a hot climate( West Texas) and most of our trips are short. I have had the car serviced at a friends service station since new. His Texaco station carried Havoline in bulk so that is what we used. About a year ago, he closed down. Rather than go to an oil change place, I change my own. I bought a lift for the shop and love it.The 3.3 motor has about 110,000 miles on the clock. I use good filters. The last oil change (1300 miles ago), I used Valvoline 10w-30 and 1/2 quart of Lucas oil additive. I have had very good results with Lucas in my Jr dragsters. I built my own engines and saw very little wear using Mobil 1 and 1 oz of Lucas in my 7.90 motors.
Friday night my wife called and said the oil light was on in the car and it was even "dinging' at her; meaning the warning bell was going off. I told her to pull over immediately and she said " NO, I'm almost home, anyway." As I ran out into the garage, she was just pulling in the garage. As she slowly and carefully parked the car as usual, the lifters were banging like crazy. I'll skip the part where I end up sleeping on the couch because I upset her and go to the problem with the engine.
I trailered the car to the shop and upon start-up, the lifters got quiet(engine was cold). I attached a mech oil pressure gauge and it had 60 psi cold and went down to 25 hot, well within factory specs per the service manual. I dropped the pan and the pickup was so stopped up, you could not even see the screen. There was a hard carbon like buildup coating the entire inside of the engine. It looked like something was trying to clean up all the build up and instead of it dissolving and mixing with the oil, it just flaked off in pieces the size of a pinhead or smaller. Some of it is still there and some was in the pan like sludge.I had to use lacquer thinner to remove the hard coating from the pan. I sprayed some brake cleaner into some areas around the cranks and block skirts and that helped take some of the coating off.
As you can well imagine, the valve cover looks as bad or worse. I can only get to one side and the intake is hard to get off as well. Pulling the engine to clean is not a viable option. Changing the oil and giving her back the van is just waiting for the same thing to happen. She only drove the car about 6 blocks with the bell going off, so we may be ok on the motor. If she had been across town, we would not be having this discussion. The motor would be locked up.
I have had the problem once before with a Dodge 360. The man I bought if from said he changed the oil ever 3000 with Pennzoil. I changed to another brand oil( can't remember the brand) and it flaked off and stopped the pickup completely. I was changing the motor to a Cummins anyway, so it was no loss.

Now for the questions. What caused this in the first place. What made it come off, the Valvoline or the Lucas. Should I use some sort of motor flush, automatic transmission fluid or what? The pan is easy to drop so a look-see after I flush is easy. I cam post some pics later on tonight. Any help would be appreciated. Mark

 

[JCCADILLACMOBILE]

i cleaned mine with Transmisison fluid. I think i got some out.. the motor oil looked like Black Kerosene (I also SeaFoamed it) and THEN the Automatic Transmission Fluid came out,AFTER the oil. Ive never opened my engine up i have an Iron Duke, but afterlike 2000 of driving and cleaning with 1/2 quart of ATF in crankcase AND SeaFoam, letting some out.. i NEVER got "Chunks" of Sludge, i htink it all cam eout nice and hot in the Kerosene Peps-looking Oil. Now i got Valvoline MaxLife Full Synthetic 5W-30 in there.. i will be using that one, it is rated as good quality.

The hard coating? maybe just dino oil build-up?

 

[PT1]

The cause? My guess is the PCV system may be clogged. Check the PCV and all the routing hoses. I would start flushing the engine with cheap 10w30 and substitute 1 quart of marvel mystery oil with it. Use a cheap oil filter and hope that you don't get the engine plugged up. I would run it 1000-1500 miles like this and keep changing it.

 

[chad8]

imo the sludge is caused by the lucas oil treatment. That stuff is too thick for your application . In simple terms , it overheated and burned . Lucas is good for old junker motors that you are trying to get a bit more life out of. In normal applications it just clogs up a motor. I did the same thing once. never again.
I would use a quart of mmo in your regular dino oil with an larger filter and run it for 1000 miles.
I also think the caravan has some overheating problem that will show up soon. You might need a new radiator ,head gasket, thermostat or other component that is failing .

 

[Johnny]

Is this Lucas additive a thick substance like STP?

 

[Greggy_D]

Originally Posted By: chad8
imo the sludge is caused by the lucas oil treatment. =


I'd lean towards this also. That stuff is useless junk.

 

[Captain_Klink]

you ruined your engine by putting Lucas into it. go to the home page of bobistheoilguy, and learn about oil additives. Looks like you have learned the hard way.

all you can do now, is tear down the engine, soak all the parts in solvent for several weeks, and put it all back together. if you don't want to do all that, drain oil completely, and refill right to the top of the filler cap with diesel fuel. let sit for a week.
remove spark plugs and crank over the engine for a few minutes with the starter motor. beware that lots of fuel will come rocketing out of the spark plug holes. be sure to warn the fire brigade to be on standby just in case. this number 2 method sometimes works, sometimes doesn't. also, make sure there is a video camera running, so you can show the results on youtube.

 

[pidster]

Lucas is [censored] as anything but an assembly lube but THAT much sludge, with oil changed every 3K miles? I can't prove you guys wrong and you very well maybe right but I can't imagine it creating THAT much. It didnt help no doubt but there must be other factors here.

 

[KW]

Yes check the PCV system! Seeing that you are handy with a wrench a couple of rinses with diesel fuel and cheap oil might be in order to get the bulk of the gick out. You likely are familiar with Marvels Mystery Oil (MMO); a couple of short 1000 mile OCI's substituting a quart of oil with a quart of MMO would help clean the rest of the stuff out of the motor.

Hope this helps...

 

[Vizzy]

I would check the PCV system BUT if yours was having a problem or had failed, the engine computer would likely have thrown a code....

I would say the additive caused your real issue.


I can't say it enough.....all you should put in your crankcase is a good quality oil...NOTHING MORE. PERIOD. If the engineers that designed your engine thought additives would have improved life or performance they would have put that in the owner's manual.

 

[JCCADILLACMOBILE]

I saw a demonstration that Lucas suffocates the anti-foam properties and addtives of the engine I will never use it again i saw the simulated motor demonstration. Lucas made the oil look likea Caramel Shake.

This is also why i SeaFoamed and Transmisison fluided my engine, because i put Lucas in for a little while.... not for long, like 100 miles, but alittle while.

 

[440Magnum]

Had the same thing happen on an older 5.2 Magnum (1992) and blamed cheap oil combined with the typical old 5.2 intake plenum/EGR leak. We saved it by removing the pan and cleaning it manually and flushing the top end with gallons and gallons of kerosene dumped through the oil fillers (the old Magnums had a filler on each valve cover) and allowed to drain out the bottom before we put the pan back on. Then did a couple of quick oil changes with Valvoline MaxLife, then switched it permanently to MaxLife and ~5k mile OCIs. The thing's still running after another 100k miles (~250k total- 318s are the toughest buggers ever made). Good oil with no additives, keeping the PCV working, and eliminating any EGR leakage (on engines where its possible) is the key to keeping the innards of an engine clean.

 

[Eddie]

You mentioned bulk oil. A known fact is that oil that sits for a long time usually has additive separation. If the bulk oil was not used up within 18 months or so then you may not have the full additive package in each oil change. Some vehicle manufactures have warned about using large sixe bulk oil container where usage is low. Just a thought. I really doubt that Lucas is a fault even though I have a low opinion of it. Ed

 

[fastmark]

Thanks for all the quick help. As hard as this coating on this engine was stuck to the internals, I find it hard to believe that it was applied in the short 1500 miles that the Lucas was in the engine. This had to be something that was APPLIED over time. After all I have had experience with two other motors that had a sever buildup and something made them turn loose. I could very well believe that the Lucas made it COME OFF, however.
Here is was I did. I cleaned up the pan, valve cover and sprayed brake cleaner on the rockers as best I could. I put in 4 quarts of fresh oil, a filter, and a Gunk motor flush and ran it for about 15 minutes until the motor got to operating temp. I drained the oil and pulled the pan back off. Nothing in it to speak of. I flushed out the filter, reinstalled it and put in 4 quarts of fresh oil and some MMO. I ran it until it got hot. It never dropped below 40 psi. I did pull a rod cap off and the bearing looked perfect, so I know I am ok there. I will change the oil in about 1000 miles and drop the pan at that time. If it looks good in the valve cover and I think the motor is all clean, I will go back to syn oil.
I checked pvc and broke the hose off so I'll finish it tomm.

 

[fastmark]

One thing I might throw in. I had a problem with the heater last winter. It would work fine sometimes and then never get hot. I figured it was stopped up. After I found the problem I started to investigate. I had a small crack in the plastic tank rad. It was just small enough that the water would leak out but never enough to get to the ground. The service station was adding anitfreeze to the overflow every oil change and I never new it. I found it when I took the car over to the shop one weekend. My wife will not let me have it long enough to work on it sometimes. I have to go around her schedule. Sometimes they just don't coincide. The gauge always showed normal and the overflow is so stained it was hard to tell it was low. When I opened rad cap, I could not even see water. The gauge read normal, though. When I filled the rad, the heater started working. That's when I found the crack. No telling how long it was leaking. She never looks at a gauge. I am sure it must have been running hot at some time. That may have contributed to this problem.

 

[Bullet]

I don't much about Lucas, but at only using it for 1500 miles your probably right. Its possible when you brought you van in for an oil change the oil wasn't changed or maybe changed with something like Golden State or worse.

 

[KW]

Originally Posted By: fastmark
One thing I might throw in. I had a problem with the heater last winter. It would work fine sometimes and then never get hot. I figured it was stopped up. After I found the problem I started to investigate. I had a small crack in the plastic tank rad. It was just small enough that the water would leak out but never enough to get to the ground. The service station was adding anitfreeze to the overflow every oil change and I never new it. I found it when I took the car over to the shop one weekend. My wife will not let me have it long enough to work on it sometimes. I have to go around her schedule. Sometimes they just don't coincide. The gauge always showed normal and the overflow is so stained it was hard to tell it was low. When I opened rad cap, I could not even see water. The gauge read normal, though. When I filled the rad, the heater started working. That's when I found the crack. No telling how long it was leaking. She never looks at a gauge. I am sure it must have been running hot at some time. That may have contributed to this problem.



I believe you found the problem. If it has run low on water it would have created hot spots that would over heat the oil and cause it to coke up like it did. The temp sender has to be in water to read. It don't look like you need to pull the oil pan off again. A few short oil changed with a quart of MMO should do the trick for you.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: KW
Originally Posted By: fastmark
One thing I might throw in. I had a problem with the heater last winter. It would work fine sometimes and then never get hot. I figured it was stopped up. After I found the problem I started to investigate. I had a small crack in the plastic tank rad. It was just small enough that the water would leak out but never enough to get to the ground. The service station was adding anitfreeze to the overflow every oil change and I never new it. I found it when I took the car over to the shop one weekend. My wife will not let me have it long enough to work on it sometimes. I have to go around her schedule. Sometimes they just don't coincide. The gauge always showed normal and the overflow is so stained it was hard to tell it was low. When I opened rad cap, I could not even see water. The gauge read normal, though. When I filled the rad, the heater started working. That's when I found the crack. No telling how long it was leaking. She never looks at a gauge. I am sure it must have been running hot at some time. That may have contributed to this problem.



I believe you found the problem. If it has run low on water it would have created hot spots that would over heat the oil and cause it to coke up like it did. The temp sender has to be in water to read. It don't look like you need to pull the oil pan off again. A few short oil changed with a quart of MMO should do the trick for you.


+1. Try running a pint of MMO for the last 1000 miles of your OCI, on your next OCI run a qt for 3000 miles, repeat if needed. It should clean things up for you.

 

[ac_tc]

The 3.3/ 3.8 runs well on HDEO and gets cleaned at the same time.

 

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: KW
Originally Posted By: fastmark
One thing I might throw in. I had a problem with the heater last winter. It would work fine sometimes and then never get hot. I figured it was stopped up. After I found the problem I started to investigate. I had a small crack in the plastic tank rad. It was just small enough that the water would leak out but never enough to get to the ground. The service station was adding anitfreeze to the overflow every oil change and I never new it. I found it when I took the car over to the shop one weekend. My wife will not let me have it long enough to work on it sometimes. I have to go around her schedule. Sometimes they just don't coincide. The gauge always showed normal and the overflow is so stained it was hard to tell it was low. When I opened rad cap, I could not even see water. The gauge read normal, though. When I filled the rad, the heater started working. That's when I found the crack. No telling how long it was leaking. She never looks at a gauge. I am sure it must have been running hot at some time. That may have contributed to this problem.



I believe you found the problem. If it has run low on water it would have created hot spots that would over heat the oil and cause it to coke up like it did. The temp sender has to be in water to read. It don't look like you need to pull the oil pan off again. A few short oil changed with a quart of MMO should do the trick for you.


Yeah, I agree with this. I think that you found the problem! I also think that the Havoline oil prevented this from happening earlier, as Havoline has one of the highest(if not the highest) flash points of any conventional oil.