BG EPR - New Oil Filthy after Running EPR

[Post]

I have a 2010 Honda CR-V. At 182K miles it started consuming about 1 quart of oil every 500 miles. Mechanic used EPR/MOA/44K at the 184K mile oil change and recommended a 4K OCI. Remarkably, after a few thousand miles the oil consumption issue almost completely disappeared. I used the three BG products at the 188K mile oil change and again yesterday at 192K miles. I ran the EPR in the old oil at 1200rpm for 12 minutes, drained the old oil, and replaced the filter.

After refilling with fresh oil and checking the dipstick, I noticed that the new oil seemed dirty so I decided to drain it. I dipped a towel in the oil and was surprised how dirty it was (see photo) plus the EPR smell was still very strong. I only ran the engine for few minutes and did not put the MOA in yet.

After 3 rounds of EPR and MOA over 10,000 miles, I'm surprised that there's still this much dirt in the engine. Wondering how I should move forward in terms of OCI and whether to continue with the EPR/MOA? Any input would be appreciated.

PS -- I've been using SuperTech 0w20 Full Synthetic High Mileage.

 

[panthermike]

I've heard of others with a similar experience; might be some dirty oil leftover. Whenever I use EPR, I will follow it with a regular oil "flush". Cheapest stuff I can find/have and run it for 15-20 minutes, drain and refill with fresh oil and new filter at that point. This also gets most of the chemical out of there. On the Corolla, Crown Vic, and CX-9, all of the flush oils were light amber color after just 20 min of run time.

Might be overkill, but I would rather not have any residual cleaner in there if possible. Although I think I'm sticking with VRP for now, so no need for the EPR at the moment.

 

[melk]

Seems like you’ve had good results with the EPR product. Personally I would skip the MOA and move to Valvoline Restore & Protect oil.

 

[Hirev]

I would just use Valvoline Restore & Protect oil and call it good

 

[Post]

I like the Valvoline R&P suggestions but would it be too slow in removing dirt? The thing that surprises me is that the EPR is still dissolving so much dirt even after running it through the engine for a 3rd time. I thought there would be less dirt by now. My initial thought was that maybe it make sense to run the EPR more often (like every 1K miles) until it drains clearer? Or, is continuous dirt just the nature of a 15 year old vehicle with 192K miles?

 

[50yr Street Mech]

You're answer is shorter OCI's. Been using BG109 flush as directed for years. Let it drain till it stops dripping. Takes awhile. 128k /03' Toyota / 2AZ-FE 4 banger / 3k OCI's. Follow up with 5W30 synthetic & BG PN 115. Oil comes out BLACK. Fill it up, and can barely find the oil on the stick. Gotta turn the stick toward a light for a reflection of some sort.....Yeah, Yeah, I'm wasting my $$$$$ @ 3k OCI.....but...pitch black oil is pitch black oil...Dirty in my book. Using OEM filters.

 

[3800Series]

I like the Valvoline R&P suggestions but would it be too slow in removing dirt? The thing that surprises me is that the EPR is still dissolving so much dirt even after running it through the engine for a 3rd time. I thought there would be less dirt by now. My initial thought was that maybe it make sense to run the EPR more often (like every 1K miles) until it drains clearer? Or, is continuous dirt just the nature of a 15 year old vehicle with 192K miles?

It will never drain clear, not saying the product works or not simply isn't my concern. Oil darkens due to oxidation, and a long OCI can lead to increased oxidation over time, resulting in darker oil. Additionally, contaminants such as solvents can also cause the oil to darken.

You can put a flush in a new motor and the oil will come out dark. Again not saying the product does nothing, simply saying the solvent+heat will cause the oil to darken very quickly regardless of internal cleanliness.

 

[panthermike]

I like the Valvoline R&P suggestions but would it be too slow in removing dirt? The thing that surprises me is that the EPR is still dissolving so much dirt even after running it through the engine for a 3rd time. I thought there would be less dirt by now. My initial thought was that maybe it make sense to run the EPR more often (like every 1K miles) until it drains clearer? Or, is continuous dirt just the nature of a 15 year old vehicle with 192K miles?

From a lot of the observations on this forum alone, I don't think it's necessarily a slow process. Many have seen some pretty amazing results in an OCI or two.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

Did not know that. Thanks for the heads up I did do a recent valve cover gasket on it. And it was spotless on the top end. Now whether it's the 3k OCI's or the BG 109 doin it, can't answer. But, the engine is 22yrs old and mostly stop and go most of it's life. A few good highway runs a few times a year. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'm staying my current heading. BG PN 109 up front, BG PN 115 in the back end. No leaks, staying my course of action ( Or I could start going to to Quik Lube and ruin everything ) NEVER !!!!! LOL " Oh, you need a cabin air filter bad, would you like one for $175 bucks " Car is not equipped with a cabin air filter, you crooks !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Critic]

Somewhat related to this: there was an anecdotal report by someone that some engines with magnesium blocks have a coating that can be damaged from the active ingredients in EPR. Remnants of the coating can present itself in the form of non metallic metal in the oil filter element. Apparently this individual works at an auto repair shop and they have seen this issue multiple times.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

OH SH-T ! I know those 2AZ-FE's have magnesium valve covers, but the head and short block are aluminum, no ?, yes ? One of my 2 - 2AZ-FE's,,, I had to install an aluminum valve cover because the magnesium one was disintegrating. Critic, my good sir, please add more info if you have any. You are most highly regarded in this forum. If anyone would know, it would be you. If head and short block are aluminum, I will discontinue 109 in the engine with the mag cover. I'm assuming they are aluminum. Don't think mag could take the punishment. Too soft... Please advise a substitute if this is the case. There should not be a problem with BG PN 115, no ?, yes ? Please let me know, 50. Thanks

 

[50yr Street Mech]

Hello Critic. I researched and found only the valve cover to be mag. Toyota used this material to save weight.... I will stop BG EPR 109 in this engine. Now, will BG PN 115 interact with the mag cover ? If not, I just need a substitute for EPR 109 to use. Please advise when you get a chance. Thanks, 50

 

[50yr Street Mech]

Sorry to pester you Critic. Went a different route. Just ordered an aluminum valve cover. THAT's the end of that. Now all the metals match. I am eternally grateful to you for bringing this to my attention. The EPR must slowly be disintegrating that stupid mag valve cover. I mean really how much " weight" was Toyota saving ?!?! Less than a pound ? An aluminum valve cover is light as a feather !!!! Idiots !! Must have been a fire sale on magnesium, that's more of a likely answer. Thank you again sir You are a plethora of information !

 

[kschachn]

Somewhat related to this: there was an anecdotal report by someone that some engines with magnesium blocks have a coating that can be damaged from the active ingredients in EPR. Remnants of the coating can present itself in the form of non metallic metal in the oil filter element. Apparently this individual works at an auto repair shop and they have seen this issue multiple times.

How many of today's engines have Mg blocks? I've never heard of that save for a few Porsche ones years and years ago.

The coating problem with those engines was related to the same issues with aluminum blocks with Nikasil.

 

[kschachn]

Hello Critic. I researched and found only the valve cover to be mag. Toyota used this material to save weight.... I will stop BG EPR 109 in this engine. Now, will BG PN 115 interact with the mag cover ? If not, I just need a substitute for EPR 109 to use. Please advise when you get a chance. Thanks, 50

The magnesium itself isn't the issue, if it did exist.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

Yeah kschachn. I researched 02'-06' Toyota 2AZ-FE 4 bangers. The block and head are aluminum, the valve cover was magnesium ( allegedly to save weight ) What Critic is saying is the the BG EPR 109 breaks down the magnesium and can sludge up the oil filter. I just purchased an aluminum valve cover, ( they're cheap too ). I'll dump that mag cover,,, this way the engine is all aluminum. 15 minute job. Problem solved. I thanked Critic. He's one smart dude.

 

[kschachn]

Yeah kschachn. I researched 02'-06' Toyota 2AZ-FE 4 bangers. The block and head are aluminum, the valve cover was magnesium ( allegedly to save weight ) What Critic is saying is the the BG EPR 109 breaks down the magnesium and can sludge up the oil filter. I just purchased an aluminum valve cover, ( they're cheap too ). I'll dump that mag cover,,, this way the engine is all aluminum. 15 minute job. Problem solved. I thanked Critic. He's one smart dude.

No the problem if it exists at all, would be with cylinder coating used in those very few magnesium blocks. That’s where the combustion heat exists. Plus I have no idea what the “non metallic metal in the oil filter element” even means. There’s no such thing as a “non metallic” metal.

Believe what you will but there’s a boatload of actual technical information missing from that supposed problem and I’d also say a lot of misunderstanding about how a magnesium engine block would be constructed as compared to a valve cover.

Issues with Nikasil-type cylinder coatings isn’t new. If of course there even is one here. I used BG EPR twice on my BMW with an Alusil block and magnesium valve covers and I didn’t generate any sludge, metallic or non-metallic.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

I'm confused. The research I did is this : The blocks and head are aluminum. ONLY the valve cover was pure 100 percent magnesium. This was done to save some weight, allegedly. I think there was an abundance of magnesium at the time, and that's why they casted them using that material. Please help...If I'm wrong, and the block and head have magnesium in them, I won't use EPR 109 at all.

 

[kschachn]

I'm confused. The research I did is this : The blocks and head are aluminum. ONLY the valve covers were pure 100 percent magnesium. This was done to save some weight, allegedly. I think there was an abundance of magnesium at the time, and that's why they casted them using that material. Please help...If I'm wrong, and the block and head have magnesium in them, I won't use EPR 109 at all.

I doubt it was due to an abundance of magnesium. That metal has always been much more expensive than aluminum. I’d agree that it was due to weight, that’s the reason BMW used it.

The block and head are aluminum yes. With cast-iron liners in the block. There’s no magnesium in the block or head.

The magnesium blocks and the aluminum block in my BMW had no liners.

 

[50yr Street Mech]

OH, THANK GOODNESS !!!!! MY mind was spinning thinking about those cylinder walls !!!!! And the EPR eating away at it !!! Believe it or not, those mag covers corrode like a S.O.B. !!!! At least in the Northeast anyway. Must be the salt from the roads. Anyway, a shiny new aluminum cover has been ordered. It was pretty cheap, and the job itself is a joke. Thanks for all you're help too ! I'm so happy I joined this forum . Thousands of people with tons of great information