Better oils or easier engines

[mjoekingz28]

It seems the consensus here is that oils are so much better than they were 10, 20, 50 years ago- but how do we know? Could it just be the engines are made with different metals and designs?

I dont know but it seems its how they work together and not necessarily one or the other.


Case in point. The viscosity chart from a 70s Camaro had 7500 mi oil changes. Seems until just recently that was the top end of todays OCIs. Now, 10-15 on Full Synthetic for highway commuters seems normal.

 

[csandste]

The Renuzit Experiment

How about Blackstone getting satisfactory results using a seventy-five year old oil with almost no additives. We worry too much!

 

[PimTac]

I would say it’s a bit of both. Today’s oils are far better than the oils of the 70’s when I started. Sludge was a issue unless you changed your oil regularly.

Today’s engines are built with better machining technology. They run cleaner so the oil stays cleaner. Most modern engines have friction reducing elements like DLC and such to reduce friction and wear. Roller cams instead of pushrods etc etc. One of the best developments was the switch from carburetors to fuel injection. Carbs that were not set right caused excessive fuel burning leading to problems.


Just a few examples but we have really come a long ways in the last few decades.

 

[ka9mnx]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
I would say it’s a bit of both. Today’s oils are far better than the oils of the 70’s when I started. Sludge was a issue unless you changed your oil regularly.

Today’s engines are built with better machining technology. They run cleaner so the oil stays cleaner. Most modern engines have friction reducing elements like DLC and such to reduce friction and wear. Roller cams instead of pushrods etc etc. One of the best developments was the switch from carburetors to fuel injection. Carbs that were not set right caused excessive fuel burning leading to problems.


Just a few examples but we have really come a long ways in the last few decades.



Absolutely 100% correct. But I think oils of today are FAR better than the SJ oils of the 90's (except for the lowering of ZDDP for my old junks). SN is even far better than SM.

 

[csandste]

Originally Posted By: ka9mnx
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I would say it’s a bit of both. Today’s oils are far better than the oils of the 70’s when I started. Sludge was a issue unless you changed your oil regularly.

Today’s engines are built with better machining technology. They run cleaner so the oil stays cleaner. Most modern engines have friction reducing elements like DLC and such to reduce friction and wear. Roller cams instead of pushrods etc etc. One of the best developments was the switch from carburetors to fuel injection. Carbs that were not set right caused excessive fuel burning leading to problems.


Just a few examples but we have really come a long ways in the last few decades.



Absolutely 100% correct. But I think oils of today are FAR better than the SJ oils of the 90's (except for the lowering of ZDDP for my old junks). SN is even far better than SM.


Even though I posted the "all oils work, sort of" article from Blackstone, I agree with this. Better oils, better engines.

 

[ka9mnx]

Interesting read but he is a lot braver than me. Did you see the VOA on that oil!

 

[weasley]

Fuel is also a lot better than it used to be, which influences oil performance.

 

[Shannow]

Having been on BITOG for a while, I thought that the laws of physics had been repealed some time ago

 

[demarpaint]

I'd say both, better oil and better engines.

 

[wemay]

Bitog consensus from those who post often is that GDi is a step back, not forward. I disagree but the sentiment is there.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Bitog consensus from those who post often is that GDi is a step back, not forward. I disagree but the sentiment is there.


Good point, I'm one of those people.

I'm not a fan of it, but I'd say it has improved since it was first introduced. And like it or not I'll probably end up owning a GDI engine. Maybe by then I'll feel it has been perfected.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Bitog consensus from those who post often is that GDi is a step back, not forward. I disagree but the sentiment is there.


Noonooonooo...especially if I'm included in the conversation.

GDI is a step forward...from the Mercedes, Messerschmidt it was superior in a lot of ways
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_300_SL

Texaco stratified charge direct injection of the 80s was cutting edge.

GDI stratified charge was supposed to keep the fuel away from the cylinder oil film, reducing HC and CO emissions, and deposits...was tested with O ring top piston rings in the early development phases to show the gains possible.

We saw on BITOG quite some time ago as Audis were being delivered to the US market with GDI that wa=hatever it was that they needed to do to get them US compliant, plus US fuels/lubricants were leading to fuel dilution, wear, deposits etc. that (apparently) weren't prevalent in their "native" environment.

Huge discussions, Terry Dyson, Envirolubes, Audi patents for engine oils that reduced intake and piston deposits.

Now we've got GDI, we've got fuel dilution, we've got port deposits, we've got the things that were being discussed with the Audies all those years ago.

GDI isn't bad, a step backwards, or inherently a problem
Diesel isn't bad, a step backward, or inherently a problem.

But there's a(multiple) problem(s) with it in it's current application in some(a) market(s) which have other, multiple competing goalposts.

e.g. Dexos 2 specced for some engines in Oz, warranty voided if use Dexos 1, where other markets (CAFE) it's Dexos 1, and take what you get.

 

[Snagglefoot]

I used to see a lot oil burners on the road but hardly any more. I’m thinking the valve seal material is probably better but for the most part it’s the oil. You keep hearing about engines with 100,000 miles that still have the cross-hatching on the cylinders. I can recall having to use the good old ridge reamer on cylinders with fewer miles than that. I doubt they did did all that much to the rings and blocks to keep that from happening. I’m thinking the advancements in the oil where more significant.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
I used to see a lot oil burners on the road but hardly any more. I’m thinking the valve seal material is probably better but for the most part it’s the oil. You keep hearing about engines with 100,000 miles that still have the cross-hatching on the cylinders. I can recall having to use the good old ridge reamer on cylinders with fewer miles than that. I doubt they did did all that much to the rings and blocks to keep that from happening. I’m thinking the advancements in the oil where more significant.


I think it was Brocluno who pointed out that EFI took care of washing down the cylinder with gas on cold start. Engines start very quickly these days.

*

I wonder if our winter/summer gas blends help. Better oils, better engines and better gas?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: PimTac


Today’s engines are built with better machining technology.


I can assure you exactly the opposite is true, more automated yes but better no. In theory 8 holes all the same size should fit 8 pistons and rings the same size should be perfect but its far from it, in fact in reality its much worse and when combined with short skirts you have piston slap issues, something that was almost unheard of and deemed a real defect (it is) years ago.

There is a name for bringing an engine closer to the original spec in measurements and balance than automation provides and its all done by hand. Blueprinting (a term also thrown around too loosely), it is time consuming and runs into serious money but back when parts were individually machined by skilled machinist you had a much better chance of getting a higher quality and better balanced part and in end effect a better engine.

 

[Mazomopar]

I agree with all of the above. Also, dilution resolves pollution. A big ol 360 huffing along on 5 quarts of 10w whatever 30 yrs ago vs my 3L engine today bathing in a 6 quart sump. Litres of displacement vs litres of lubrication has been a game changer. Seems our diesel friends have known this for a while.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
I would say it’s a bit of both. Today’s oils are far better than the oils of the 70’s when I started. Sludge was a issue unless you changed your oil regularly.
Unless you change your oil regularly sludge is still an issue.

 

[CT8]

Removing lead from the gas was a huge plus for engine life as well as the emission warranty.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: csandste
The Renuzit Experiment

How about Blackstone getting satisfactory results using a seventy-five year old oil with almost no additives. We worry too much!
oil keeps the parts separated. If the oil keeps then parts separated all is good. We tend to forget that point and fall for the marketing claims.

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
I would say it’s a bit of both. Today’s oils are far better than the oils of the 70’s when I started. Sludge was a issue unless you changed your oil regularly.

Today’s engines are built with better machining technology. They run cleaner so the oil stays cleaner. Most modern engines have friction reducing elements like DLC and such to reduce friction and wear. Roller cams instead of pushrods etc etc. One of the best developments was the switch from carburetors to fuel injection. Carbs that were not set right caused excessive fuel burning leading to problems.


Just a few examples but we have really come a long ways in the last few decades.



I agree . Compare multi-port FI to a carb .

The carb was a huge compromise , likely none of the cylinders got 100% the correct fuel / air mixture . Add that to funky choke mechanisms .

I do not know if it is true , but I have read one reasons engines last longer is over rich F/A mixtures washed oil off the cylinder walls , accelerating wear . And causing fuel dilution of the oil .

And a FI car starts so much easier / better . Especially in cold weather .