Best oil for a Ball drive?

[69fury]

Some friends donated a Paxton supercharger for my vintage gasser Falcon build. The unit is a fairly rare VR4 unit that has much more load on the ball drive than typical Paxton SN units.

For those not familiar, the ball drive looks like the planetary from an auto trans,except with 1 inch ball bearings instead of gears. The pulley turns the cage (part 13,below), which run the planets around inside the shell races. The races are shimmed to force the balls into the center spindle, throwing it forward at much higher rpm. (part 16 ball drive assy.)

Based on a SN93 with a 1:4.44 step up ratio, the VR4 has upgraded housing/impeller, and the races are shimmed to twice the rotational set up tension as others, which increases the heat to a point that a hollow dipstick/pump/oil cooler is included (and barely keeps up with heat produced of this blower)

This "race only" blower is run by some on the street using a larger radiator/pump to cool it.

ATF or Paxton's atf is recommended with some running B&M Trick Shift atf. The B&M fluid supposedly gives the balls more grip on the inner shaft.

If there are any engineers around that know ball drives- how much does the device require "grip" vs "slip" of the fluid? Should a friction modifier be added to atf, or could too much cause more problems?

"they" say to stay away from synthetics in these, but "they" dont say why.

I have some friends that run turbo street cars (1000hp) using tractor hydro in the trans (with a quart of atf for color,lol) that claim tighter converter stall under boost...and that the trans loves it....

my point: is there a better fluid/additive that can handle the intense heat and transfer is off easily and still give the "slip" and "grip" needed for a ball drive? I'm trying to design a better cooling system with a bigger pump, radiator and 2-3 gallon reservoir (blower only holds 10 ounces of atf.)

thanx
-rick

 

[ledslinger]

Put an A/C clutch on it and actuate it with a switch. Not sure what kind of torque it takes to drive it, an A/C clutch might not handle it. Maybe some other clutch would do it. Turbo Supercharger on demand.

 

[69fury]

ok mad max, your suggestion is to use a clutch instead of fluid to lubricate it?

I'm trying to find the best fluid to handle the heat these make-this one died on a quartermile pass after being dead cold from having the belt off during a cruise.

the VR4 makes a TON of heat.

 

[Unleashedbeast]

I'm curious, what are the advantages of this unit versus their other units that don't exhibit the extreme issues with heat?

 

[69fury]

the vr4 upgrade uses an impeller cover plate with a much larger opening to feed the center of the impeller.
stock impeller here: 4-6psi and around 7-800cfm

High output impeller has cupped leading tips and is good for maybe 6-8psi and around 850ish cfm

this is a VR4 good to 15psi and 1500-1700cfm (lots of blower in a small package) but to get that you have to really set up the tension and they dont last without heat control.

big guy VR4:

 

[mechtech2]

Those impellers look like they are from a martial arts movie!

Anyway, how about the lube for GMs superchargers? It should be about the same.

 

[69fury]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Those impellers look like they are from a martial arts movie!

Anyway, how about the lube for GMs superchargers? It should be about the same.



If GM specs an ATF for their blowers, maybe: but roots or screw blowers have a gear drive at the rear that takes gear oil or engine oil for the gear interface.

I assumed friction modifiers help atf allow trans clutches to grip better, but Amsoil's site states their racing atf has NO friction modifiers in it, leaving my assumptions swinging in the breeze...

I dont know what a ball drive truly requires in a lube.

Paxton sold the ball drive rights when they converted to gear drive, so all their techs can tell me is "what's a ball drive?" The guy that bought the ball drive rights doesn't have a website and uses ATF or Paxtrac atf.

I want something better. I'm doing a full flow mod on the housing to supply the internal pump with plenty of cool fluid (the stock electric pump just trickles), and i'll use a large reservoir, but i want the most ideal fluid i can find with today's tech.

-rick

 

[Gary Allan]

Not knowing a darn thing about the characteristics/requirements of the ball drive, I'd tend to do as you intend and merely enhance the environment that the spec'd fluid operates in. I assume you're seeking long(er) term reliability and not "performance", per se~.

You're already heading that way. Higher capacity refreshed at a higher rate. That's about all you can do until someone tells you the composition of the sacred fluid. Either that or you stumble around using different fluids and see what happens.

 

[Gene K]

Send a PM to MolaKule and ask for a recommendation on the fluid.

He still post here time to time.

 

[MolaKule]

I would use a racing type F fluid. Since this apparently is a supercharger and not a turbocharger, you will not see exhaust gas temps at the bearings.

I would use a Synthetic Racing type F unless there is question as to seal compatibility.

Having a reservoir and a small cooler should reduce bearing temps and ball-clutch temps.

 

[69fury]

I double checked the Amsoil synthetic racing transmission fluid. The website states it is suitable for replacing type F, but not for mecon, or chrysler atf+ fluids. ok...

looks like it should do fine- are there other synthetic type f's that you would recommend for comparison sake?

Is there some uber-awesome synthetic type f that may beat Amsoil?

Can someone school me as why Amsoil uses no friction modifiers or viscosity improvers? I would think you'd want those...

rick

 

[DragRace]

Type F fluid only,period! I used this supercharger on the mustang years ago. It's a older style supercharger thats since been replaced with the gear charger systems,which use a helical gear drive install of a ball drive setup like used here,which are known for generating alot of heat.

I'd suggest a oil cooler for this setup as well.

 

[69fury]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
Type F fluid only,period! I used this supercharger on the mustang years ago. It's a older style supercharger thats since been replaced with the gear charger systems,which use a helical gear drive install of a ball drive setup like used here,which are known for generating alot of heat.

I'd suggest a oil cooler for this setup as well.


i've got the stock dipstick w/pump and cooler that i'm replacing with a better pump, bigger cooler, more fluid, along with a full flow mod on the case.

I'm just looking for the best fluid possible to handle the heat, and give the best grip on the ball drive- so far it's looking like the Amsoil synthetic type F is gonna fit the bill.

-rick

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Can someone school me as why Amsoil uses no friction modifiers or viscosity improvers? I would think you'd want those...


Type F fluids have friction modifiers but are NOT the same friction modifiers used in "highly-friction-modified-fluids" such as the Dexrons, Chrysler ATF +'s, etc.

Different friction modifier chemistries control the static and dynamic friction characteristics of an ATF fluid.

Another fluid you might consider is the Redline
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=52&pcid=9

fluid.

Viscosity Index Modifiers are not needed OR wanted since they tend to shear too much in racing applications, so synthetic Type F's seem the way to go since they already have high viscosity index base fluids.

 

[69fury]

Thanx for all the input, guys! I'm leaning towards the Amsoil or maybe Redline, depending on which one handles the heat best. They seem to be about the same cost.