Battery upgrade?

[maximus]

Originally Posted By: oilmutt
Try to squeeze in a group #78 battery. It has 800 cc ,from Costco,interstate brand,42 month warranty,about $86.00 with sales tax.


No way, no how a side post battery will fit unless extensive modifications are done.


With trunk batteries, there's usually no alternative from OEM groupd size.

Have the battery tested again.

 

[wrcsixeight]

Engine starting batteries especially, need to live their life as close to fully charged as possible. Actual engine starting does not take much battery capacity at all, and short drives should be able to replace what is used during engine cranking.

Issues arise when the battery is depleted by sitting while the door locks and engine computer parasitically draws off of the battery. Getting a battery from 80% charged, to 100% charged takes a long time, no matter what charging source is used. No matter how big and shiny the alternator, no matter its rating, no matter how well it is marketed or how new it is. 80% to 100% takes about 4 hours when held at voltages in the mid 14s. Voltages in the 13's double and triple the time it takes to reach full charge, and that is generous.

So If the battery is drained and then short tripped, then it stands little chance of ever being fully recharged, until it is driven on the highway for 4+ hours.

If the battery was drained so much it needed a jumpstart, and then it was not fully charged via a grid powered battery charger, but short trip driven, then the battery is ticking and will fail outright soon.

Actually getting a depleted lead acid battery truly fully charged is something 99% of people have no clue about, instead waiting on a soothing green light to come on via an automatic charging source. Some love the word 'trickle' too, not realizing that a 'trickle' rate applied for 5 days might not fully charge the battery, depending on the maximum voltage of the 'trickle' charger.

So if your current battery has been chronically undercharged, so too will be your new battery, unless you verify the charging system is working properly. If the battery is ever depleted by sitting for 3 weeks undriven, or by leaving the lights or stereo on, the best thing you can do is apply a charging source to the battery for long enough to max out the specific gravity of the cells.

Green lights on Automatic charging sources are liars.
Resting open circuit voltage tells very little about battery condition despite mass opinion.
The amperage the battery accepts at Absorption voltages is much more revealing as to state of charge.
A good temperature compensated hydrometer is the flooded lead acid battery polygraph.

Anyone who really wants to know how well their charging sources are, are kidding themselves relying on voltage readings alone, or green light displays on automatic chargers.

And while automatic underchargers are not perfect, they do the job better than the alternator can on a short trip driven vehicle.

With Automatic chargers, after they flash the green full charge indicator, unplug the charger, turn the lights on until battery voltage falls below 12.6v, then plug in and restart the charger. Doing this several times will get the battery closer and closer to a true 100% full charge, where it wants to live.

 

[ET16]

Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
Engine starting batteries especially, need to live their life as close to fully charged as possible. Actual engine starting does not take much battery capacity at all, and short drives should be able to replace what is used during engine cranking.

Issues arise when the battery is depleted by sitting while the door locks and engine computer parasitically draws off of the battery. Getting a battery from 80% charged, to 100% charged takes a long time, no matter what charging source is used. No matter how big and shiny the alternator, no matter its rating, no matter how well it is marketed or how new it is. 80% to 100% takes about 4 hours when held at voltages in the mid 14s. Voltages in the 13's double and triple the time it takes to reach full charge, and that is generous.

So If the battery is drained and then short tripped, then it stands little chance of ever being fully recharged, until it is driven on the highway for 4+ hours.

If the battery was drained so much it needed a jumpstart, and then it was not fully charged via a grid powered battery charger, but short trip driven, then the battery is ticking and will fail outright soon.

Actually getting a depleted lead acid battery truly fully charged is something 99% of people have no clue about, instead waiting on a soothing green light to come on via an automatic charging source. Some love the word 'trickle' too, not realizing that a 'trickle' rate applied for 5 days might not fully charge the battery, depending on the maximum voltage of the 'trickle' charger.

So if your current battery has been chronically undercharged, so too will be your new battery, unless you verify the charging system is working properly. If the battery is ever depleted by sitting for 3 weeks undriven, or by leaving the lights or stereo on, the best thing you can do is apply a charging source to the battery for long enough to max out the specific gravity of the cells.

Green lights on Automatic charging sources are liars.
Resting open circuit voltage tells very little about battery condition despite mass opinion.
The amperage the battery accepts at Absorption voltages is much more revealing as to state of charge.
A good temperature compensated hydrometer is the flooded lead acid battery polygraph.

Anyone who really wants to know how well their charging sources are, are kidding themselves relying on voltage readings alone, or green light displays on automatic chargers.

And while automatic underchargers are not perfect, they do the job better than the alternator can on a short trip driven vehicle.

With Automatic chargers, after they flash the green full charge indicator, unplug the charger, turn the lights on until battery voltage falls below 12.6v, then plug in and restart the charger. Doing this several times will get the battery closer and closer to a true 100% full charge, where it wants to live.


Great post!

 

[circuitsmith]

The original battery in my Matrix is finishing up its 9th winter running strong.
I typically do a couple 30 minute drives a week (don't drive to work): lots of short trips.
Every 2 months I take the battery out and charge it overnight on an adjustable power supply set to 14-15V, depending on battery temp.
Charge current starts ~2A and falls to ~200mA.
Then I charge at 16V for about 30 minutes to equalize.

 

[wrcsixeight]

The Adjustable voltage power supply is also the route I have taken regarding a plug in solution to fully charging a battery.

I have put an inline amp hour counter on it to better observe what the battery is accepting at certain voltages, and the glass temperature compensated hydrometer is also regularly employed to see how long 16V EQ charges need to be applied to get all the cells to their maximum previously observed specific gravity.

16V can be damaging to some nominal 12 volt electronics so the battery should be disconnected from vehicle during such charging at such voltages.

Batteries that are discharged below 80% regularly require EQ charges more often, and batteries never discharged at all much might never require an EQ charge.

The only way to tell....... a hydrometer.

 

[kb27]

Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
The Adjustable voltage power supply is also the route I have taken regarding a plug in solution to fully charging a battery.

I have put an inline amp hour counter on it to better observe what the battery is accepting at certain voltages, and the glass temperature compensated hydrometer is also regularly employed to see how long 16V EQ charges need to be applied to get all the cells to their maximum previously observed specific gravity.

16V can be damaging to some nominal 12 volt electronics so the battery should be disconnected from vehicle during such charging at such voltages.

Batteries that are discharged below 80% regularly require EQ charges more often, and batteries never discharged at all much might never require an EQ charge.

The only way to tell....... a hydrometer.

I get new batteries delivered regularly from my supplier.
Now, I put smart charger first on everyone of them and they will be charged until the smart charger stops, usually for quite a few hours.

Then I followed up with a power supply equalizing charge at 15.0V or 15.8V, via experiment.
They will continue charging a few more hours, until I'm satisfied the current drops below certain amps.

Using a hydrometer (I've the EZ red) is a bit cumbersome and I don't like acid spills, so I try to avoid where possible.

I'm afraid I might be pushing the batteries into overcharge, but they seemed to do well after what I've done and holding higher resting voltage, usually 12.7 above.

I'm just trying to find out what's the absorption current that I should stop, without using the hydrometer.

Before I started equalizing the new batteries, sometimes I would get complains of weak battery from customers, and it turns out the specific gravity was weak or fair. That's the reason I started doing the charging/equalizing regime.

 

[wrcsixeight]

Smart chargers almost always revert to float voltages prematurely and a hydrometer will prove this

All batteries vary slightly as to what Absorption voltages they need, and now long the battery is to be held there while the amps taper. The best starting place for info is from the manufacturer, if the manufacturer can be determines and actually publishes anything.

But the Hydrometer cannot be avoided when one is fine tuning the charge regimen to charge as much as needed, and no more.

Battery acid is Not that scary, just protect your eyes while dipping the hydrometer, wear clothes you do not care about, and have a clean tray to rest the hydrometer in.

Having some baking soda on hand, and perhaps some dissolved in water, to neutralize acid is not a bad idea.

But achieving a true 100% recharge is not for everybody. It is much easier to believe the green light, have faith in the vehicles charging system, and replace the battery when it need it. perhaps it will do well, perhaps not.

But any serious discharge should have a plug in charger applied to the depleted battery ASAP. The surface charge from driving will need to be removed before an automatic charger will start. Turn on the lights for a bit.

If an automatic smart charger sees voltages over 12.6v it might go right into float mode instead, then the green light convinces the person operating the charger thinks that the alternator is a magical instant battery charger.

The person dipping a hydrometer would see the electrolyte Specific gravity deep in the red, and curse the green light and the smart charger so stupid it wont try and charge the battery.

Plastic hydrometers are not very accurate. Make sure no bubbles stick to the float. A bubble can throw off readings by 0.010 easy.

I find that bubbles stick to the float easier when the battery is depleted compared to when it is 80% or above.

 

[Oil Changer]

So what is one to do with sealed batteries?

 

[Garak]

Technically, "sealed" batteries are not. In the taxi days, we did top up electrolyte on "sealed" batteries. The AC Delco batteries we used could have the caps popped very easily, and without causing damage, using a flathead screwdriver.

 

[wrcsixeight]

As garak says, many sealed battery's cells are accessible. These maintenance free batteries plates are designed so that the battery will likely need to be replaced before it loses so much water as to need to be refilled. These flooded maintenance free batteries use more calcium in their plate paste, and are even less tolerant of deeper discharges that regular starting batteries.

The AGM and Gel batteries which are the valve regulated sealed lead acid batteries are not refillable in most all cases.

To determine full charge on these, one needs an Ammeter to see how many amps the battery is accepting at manufacturer recommended Absorption voltages.

Lifeline AGM, pretty much the top dog Cycleable AGM( not designed for high CCA figures) says that when the 100 amp hour battery can no longer accept more than 0.5 amps at 14.4 volts, it is fully charged.

All lead acid batteries are similar. When near fully charged the amp flow really slows down when the Absorption voltage is held as the battery approaches full charge. Flooded batteries will require more amperage than AGM batteries to be held at Absorption voltages when fully charged.

So holding Absorption voltages for long enough is the trick to fully charging a battery. The absorption voltage varies from battery to battery, and changes with temperature and as the battery ages, which is why no one size fits all battery charger can do the job it claims to do, as the variables which affect the top end full recharge, is a moving target.

Again, getting a battery to a true 100% recharge is not worth it for many people. To the maintenance minded Bitoger who stresses the PPM of ZDDp and Moly in their oils, a 92% recharge via an automatic charger might be intolerable, when 100% can be achieved by higher voltages applied for longer.

With the common flooded battery, the maintenance minded can do their oil 'oil analysis' with a hydrometer, to judge the performance of their bell and whistled Automatic smart charger. More often than not, the hydrometer will reveal the bells and whistles, are ringing and whistling, well before the job is done, like Dubya on the aircraft carrier.

Restarting the bell and whistle charger after removing surface charge, might or might not do the job. It depends on many many variables.

 

[aa1986]

If you're gonna attack Dubya then I'm gonna side with my smart charger.

 

[circuitsmith]

Originally Posted By: kb27
I'm just trying to find out what's the absorption current that I should stop, without using the hydrometer.


I just charge at 14-15V (depending on temp) until the current stops tapering and holds steady for an hour or so.
Not perfect but much better than keeping it 90% full.

 

[HangFire]

It is the Reserve Capacity, not the CCA you should be looking at... but until you measure the parastic draw, it may all be pis*ing in the wind.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
These maintenance free batteries plates are designed so that the battery will likely need to be replaced before it loses so much water as to need to be refilled.

That's been my experience. Most of them on my personal vehicles have never needed to be touched, except for one that used to get put through taxi-like mileage (and the taxis themselves, of course).

 

[daves87rs]

Updating...been doing a bunch of testing (connections everywhere), and so far, no draw. A buddy of mine is coming to help me look it over as well...

But, I am liking the idea of charging it fully, so I might give that a try....

 

[kb27]

Originally Posted By: daves87rs
Updating...been doing a bunch of testing (connections everywhere), and so far, no draw. A buddy of mine is coming to help me look it over as well...

But, I am liking the idea of charging it fully, so I might give that a try....


I've a number of cases, where customers came back to me and complain battery feels weak.
CCA is tested good, but the specific gravity of the battery is not.

Use equalizing charge to desulfate the battery until the specific gravity is good and the battery will work well.

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: kb27
Originally Posted By: daves87rs
Updating...been doing a bunch of testing (connections everywhere), and so far, no draw. A buddy of mine is coming to help me look it over as well...

But, I am liking the idea of charging it fully, so I might give that a try....


I've a number of cases, where customers came back to me and complain battery feels weak.
CCA is tested good, but the specific gravity of the battery is not.

Use equalizing charge to desulfate the battery until the specific gravity is good and the battery will work well.



Yep, will be charging it this weekend....

 

[daves87rs]

Update: Left the battery to get fully charged-seems to helped it with the short trip issues. Guess it wanted to be 100%...

UP until today-no issues. Took it on two very short trips, right across the street from one another. Car needed a second turn to start.

So, I'm thinking about charging it again soon. Pretty sure it can't hurt at this point...