Basic generic filter fitment questions..

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Good morning BITOG!

I hope everyone is having a decent Monday thus-far.
I'm running into an issue which raised some questions I don't have answers to, which, I'm sure are basic knowledge to you folks.

What makes one oil filter "fit" a specific vehicle compared to the next? Reading dimensional specs of one brand compared to another, for the same vehicle, filters vary in size, say 4.75" compared to 5" high, 2.96" vs 3" in diameter, etc, with pitches the same M20x1.5 or M20-1.5-6H. These are differences in filters for the same vehicle. My question really is, if I find a filter with these generic specs, and the same thread pitch, then what makes one filter different than another? I can't find a filter for an older car anywhere within 3 days shipping time... but I see plenty of filters of basically the same size, same thread, for other vehicles. What exactly makes a filter "fit" to OEM spec? Flow rate? Filter medium design? Something else? I'm confused here.. Can some folks please shed some light on why a high-quality name brand filter that has the same size and thread as the one I'm looking for will somehow be different than one this old car calls for? I've just got this car back together, with the exception of an oil filter, it's going to be nice out tonight after work and rain the rest of the week, I just want to hear the car run! Has anyone else used a filter on a car meant for a different car?



Any help is appreciated!

Thank you,

The Wew
 
1) Thread diameter and pitch
2) Gasket type and diameter
3) Bypass valve release pressure (and whether there is a bypass valve or not)
4) has or doesn't have an anti-drainback valve as required by the engine design
5) Do its external dimensions make it hit anything it shouldn't when it is installed?

That's why you can easily run a PH8A equivalent filter on so many vehicles.
 
Several topics are actually embedded in your question ...

First - what about warranty? Warranty of the vehicle, and warranty of the filter product.
If you are under warranty for the vehicle, then it's advisable to follow those guides using products that meet the specific product fitment. I do not mean to say you must by the OEM brand, but you do need to follow the OEM requirements (not the same as recommendations BTW). Since these are not often published for we consumers, we rely on the aftermarket to fill this void for us. Using a Fram/Purolator/Wix/Baldwin/Etc is OK as long as you use something that they also require. Often, actually almost always, the warranty of the vehicle and product is predicated on following their guides. If your vehicle is not under warranty, this part can be ignored. But you also have to think about the filter warranty; read on.

Understanding warranty is about realizing where the burden of proof lays. It's not that you cannot use a product outside the requirements of the OEM or filter maker, but when you do so, they have the plausible position to at least delay any coverage, if not outright deny it. When you use their products as prescribed, should something go wrong, it is upon them to prove that you made a mistake. If you go out on your own, they can (at a minimum) delay/deny coverage until you can prove (in court or arbitration) that your decision did not cause the doom that may have happened. In this case, it's you against Goliath. They have mounds of data, lots of lawyers, and time is on their side. You have a bunch of BITOG know-it-alls that won't show up in court, and most cannot articulately describe why they think "bigger is better", etc.

Next, after warranty, comes the understanding of the variation of applications from OEM perspective. I will never understand why there are not perhaps only 25 filters for nearly any engine in the entire marketplace for any given industry. As you see, there are common mounting options, similar sizing, similar pressure ratings, etc. For example if a FL910 is OK to use on a Fusion 2.5L and a FL400 is OK on a Taurus Vulcan 3.0L, why cannot they interchange officially? Beats me. I've seen probably more UOAs than anyone here, and I have yet to see any correlation between filter size and wear rates even when OCIs are 2x or 3x the OEM limit. So if the smaller filter (FL910) is OK for 7.5k miles on a Fusion, they why not a Taurus? Am I supposed to believe that extra 500cc of displacement warrants a bigger filter? To some degree, it's just crazy. I do completely understand why there are different packaging choices and constraints, but I would think that if the industry got together and made a concerted investment in logic, they'd find about 25 different filters that would succeed in probably 95% of ALL applications. Yet there are literally hundreds of different filters out there just for cars alone.

After that comes the topic of "close enough is good enough" when viewed from the aftermarket. There are plenty of examples where perhaps the target filter is a high-volume seller (say FL400). You have already noticed that Fram, Wix, Puro, Bosch, Baldwin, etc all make filters that are not EXACTLY the same size/pressure/bypass/etc, but they all will warrant their own product for that specific application. They realize that "close enough is good enough". The engine really does not care if the filter is an extra .200" taller, or .125" narrower, or has a bypass lift-off at 9psi, or 10psi, or 11psi. It needs to work at it's main job; filtering chunks from the flow. Past that, as long as it fits and the parameters (size, pressure, relief) are near the OEM spec, it'll work just fine. The irony is that when they do it, they will back it up with warranty, but if YOU do it, you're on your own.

Common sense says that anywhere an FL400 can fit, without danger of physical damage, an FL910 should hold up fine. And vice-versa. But woe unto those who ever have a problem should the unthinkable happen.

I actually do this at times; I use filters that are not "approved" for the application. But I only do so with equipment I can afford the risk, and am willing to experience downtime, and ultimately risk an uncompensated loss. And I vet my choice with nano-precision. I double check all factors. While I am willing to do this, it is rare that I do so.

The key is to make 100% (total absolute) assurance that you didn't overlook some important thing. An excellent example is a guy I read about on another forum that wanted to use a GM filter from one application for another. He nearly did it, until I pointed out that the filter he was wanting to use didn't have a bypass valve in it, although the application did. GM used to put the bypass valve in the block (as did some other OEMs at times) and so the filter didn't have a BP inside of it. But the application he was fitting had no such valve in the block, and mandated a BP in the filter. He risked serious damage should either the filter blow apart the media, or etc ... All because he noticed that the gasket size and threads were the "same". So the caution here is to be 100% sure you've looked at ALL APPLICABLE CONCERNS prior to substituting a filter outside of the recommended application. I am not saying you're dumb enough to make this mistake, but by gosh, we all know someone that is, right? The internet is now full of videos of folks that thought they knew better ... It's funny when it's not your car/truck/tractor/tire/house/mailbox/hands/eyes/wife/daughter that is, at a minimum, inconvenienced or worse, hurt.

Two examples make this clear:
Scenario A
You're at home, stuck in a raging blizzard for three days, your electricity went out 12 hours ago, and how you have no choice but to run the generator or risk your son's breathing machine running out of battery back-up power. You NEED this engine to run right NOW, and the filter on it has burst through a rust spot. You have a "darn close enough" filter in the garage. It fits, but it's not "approved" for the generator. Your nearest auto-parts place is 2 hours away driving in 12" of snow. In this case, by all means, save a life and put that "wrong" filter onto the generator. Do whatever it takes. As long as the specs are "close enough" it's going to save your life, save a home from burst pipes, save a barn full of animals from dying, then OK, do it!
Scenario B
You just put $5k into a motor rebuild, on a labor of love hot-rod project, and you think "Meh ... this filter might work", and the risk is blowing a motor that is not a necessity to run in the next 20 minutes, then that's just plain silly to me. Can you not get a filter tomorrow on the way home, or have the spouse pick one up at W/M while getting groceries? How important is it to hear this motor run immediately?

Risk v. Rewards!
 
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Thank you both very much for the information! I can see I have a lot of further reading to do but at least have more topics and keywords for my searches. Your input and information is highly appreciated. I can see the trouble will be finding an equivalent filter with such a high relief valve PSI (27-35)
smile.gif
 
Yes - that is a bit of an odd pressure; much higher than most.

Most typical filters are anywhere from 8-15psi. With the range you show, any "close enough" common filter will probably be in BP the entire time, or at least burping the BP open and closed repeatedly. This risks unfiltered stuff in the lube circuit; not a good thing.

Just what is the specific application, anyway? Why such a high dP?



P.S. - 20 posts in 12 years? That might be a record of BITOG restrain!
 
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Good advice from both of the prior posts. I have used oversize filters if all of the published specifications match except external size. I still believe that larger filters can be a benefit during severe cold starts where the filter bypass valve is going to open on the pressure surge when the engine lights off at increased RPM. Be aware that some filters have a concave or convex base-plate to accommodate different length mounting studs without any published differences. I know people who have had catastrophic engine failure because 3/4-16 threads and 20-1.5 metric threads have been interchanged and the filter later came loose. Wix has one of the best filter look-up sites ( http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/FilterBySize.aspx ) but notice the disclaimer at the top of the page about no warranty based on matching by size.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Yes - that is a bit of an odd pressure; much higher than most.

Most typical filters are anywhere from 8-15psi. With the range you show, any "close enough" common filter will probably be in BP the entire time, or at least burping the BP open and closed repeatedly. This risks unfiltered stuff in the lube circuit; not a good thing.

Just what is the specific application, anyway? Why such a high dP?



I'm glad you replied, the filter I was thinking of using states only 11-17 PSI, and is for a Hyundai. It's an old Porsche motor, little 4 cylinder, and needs relatively "thick" oil (0W-40). I'm hunting now for something with the requirements you pointed out it needs but with some numbers closer to the relief valve spec of the ancient filter that's currently on it. But it's painstakingly slow reading numbers for random filters being unable to search by either relief valve opening pressure or thread pitch. Thank you for your reply and sharing your knowledge, it's appreciated, another reason I love this forum.
 
Originally Posted By: compratio10_5
Good advice from both of the prior posts. I have used oversize filters if all of the published specifications match except external size. I still believe that larger filters can be a benefit during severe cold starts where the filter bypass valve is going to open on the pressure surge when the engine lights off at increased RPM. Be aware that some filters have a concave or convex base-plate to accommodate different length mounting studs without any published differences. I know people who have had catastrophic engine failure because 3/4-16 threads and 20-1.5 metric threads have been interchanged and the filter later came loose. Wix has one of the best filter look-up sites ( http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/FilterBySize.aspx ) but notice the disclaimer at the top of the page about no warranty based on matching by size.


Ooooh good search link, THANKS!
 
Originally Posted By: wewsnu
Good morning BITOG!

I hope everyone is having a decent Monday thus-far.
I'm running into an issue which raised some questions I don't have answers to, which, I'm sure are basic knowledge to you folks.

What makes one oil filter "fit" a specific vehicle compared to the next? Reading dimensional specs of one brand compared to another, for the same vehicle, filters vary in size, say 4.75" compared to 5" high, 2.96" vs 3" in diameter, etc, with pitches the same M20x1.5 or M20-1.5-6H. These are differences in filters for the same vehicle. My question really is, if I find a filter with these generic specs, and the same thread pitch, then what makes one filter different than another? I can't find a filter for an older car anywhere within 3 days shipping time... but I see plenty of filters of basically the same size, same thread, for other vehicles. What exactly makes a filter "fit" to OEM spec? Flow rate? Filter medium design? Something else? I'm confused here.. Can some folks please shed some light on why a high-quality name brand filter that has the same size and thread as the one I'm looking for will somehow be different than one this old car calls for? I've just got this car back together, with the exception of an oil filter, it's going to be nice out tonight after work and rain the rest of the week, I just want to hear the car run! Has anyone else used a filter on a car meant for a different car?

Any help is appreciated!

Thank you,

The Wew


The short answer to what decides on what filter should be used on what vehicle is:
1) Physical size (has to fit on the mounting base in the physical space provided, and correctly and seal).
2) Thread size & pitch (obviously).
3) Bypass valve setting based on the specified oil viscosity and maximum flow volume through the media which creates the delta-p across the bypass valve.
4) The expected duration the filter will be used (bypass setting could be higher for expected long use debris loading, which causes higher delta-p).

The filter's bypass valve setting can be different depending on the flow characteristics of the filter. You can see this if you look up filters of different brands for the same engine ... you'll see they are not all necessarily the same bypass setting.

So have you tried looking up which filter some of the big manufactures specify for your vehicle? That's the best place to start.
 
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