Bashers against snake oil additives
- Thread starter southernjeeper
- Start date
- Status
Use whatever you wish....just be careful when recommending or "sharing" your experience with said snake oil with nothing scientific to back it up. Nobody really cares what you pour in your sump I betcha.
Hello all,
I think people are forgetting one very important thing. A big company is just as likely to mis-represent a product as a small one. Do people honestly believe that the big oil companies never tell fibs about their product? People assume that because these companies have alot to loose if they create a product that damages a vehicle, that they are less likely to lie?! Really? The truth is they have enormous budgets for legal companies to bury any action, or stall it for years.
Small companies have very little such resources, and even more to loose...would that mean they could be more honest about their products? Doubtful, but it is annoying how people treat the big oil companies as bloody sacrosanct. The big companies have been exagerating their products abilities for decades, no different from small companies.
I would not be surprised if big companies watch these "snake oils" to see which ones are popular and create their own version. How many items currently bolted to vehicles, or products in the engine started out as "snake oils" or "[censored]" before being "legitimised by the big companies? How often have technologies started small and being derided before they are used universally?
Anyone remember when multi-grades came in? Synthetics were supposed to change the world, they did'nt. Cross fire spark plugs? Multi-valve heads? Single sided swing arms? magnesium engine parts? Ethanol that was supposed to destroy cars? In Australia 10% was allowed to be added to fuel and sold, the country almost erupted in war as everyone came out to say the world would fall apart, it did'nt. In Brasil I think they have 40% ethanol in their fuel.
There are companies making dubious promises, big and small, and in all honesty, writing a company to ask them whats in their product, and getting no reply does not mean they are hiding anything... who in their right mind is going to tell everyone whats in their "special" product? Really guys, its like asking a bloody chef "whats that unique taste?".
Buyer beware is a dictum for use for ALL purchases.
I think people are forgetting one very important thing. A big company is just as likely to mis-represent a product as a small one. Do people honestly believe that the big oil companies never tell fibs about their product? People assume that because these companies have alot to loose if they create a product that damages a vehicle, that they are less likely to lie?! Really? The truth is they have enormous budgets for legal companies to bury any action, or stall it for years.
Small companies have very little such resources, and even more to loose...would that mean they could be more honest about their products? Doubtful, but it is annoying how people treat the big oil companies as bloody sacrosanct. The big companies have been exagerating their products abilities for decades, no different from small companies.
I would not be surprised if big companies watch these "snake oils" to see which ones are popular and create their own version. How many items currently bolted to vehicles, or products in the engine started out as "snake oils" or "[censored]" before being "legitimised by the big companies? How often have technologies started small and being derided before they are used universally?
Anyone remember when multi-grades came in? Synthetics were supposed to change the world, they did'nt. Cross fire spark plugs? Multi-valve heads? Single sided swing arms? magnesium engine parts? Ethanol that was supposed to destroy cars? In Australia 10% was allowed to be added to fuel and sold, the country almost erupted in war as everyone came out to say the world would fall apart, it did'nt. In Brasil I think they have 40% ethanol in their fuel.
There are companies making dubious promises, big and small, and in all honesty, writing a company to ask them whats in their product, and getting no reply does not mean they are hiding anything... who in their right mind is going to tell everyone whats in their "special" product? Really guys, its like asking a bloody chef "whats that unique taste?".
Buyer beware is a dictum for use for ALL purchases.
Sure.
Originally Posted By: mr_blackstock
Hello all,
I think people are forgetting one very important thing. A big company is just as likely to mis-represent a product as a small one. Do people honestly believe that the big oil companies never tell fibs about their product? People assume that because these companies have alot to loose if they create a product that damages a vehicle, that they are less likely to lie?! Really? The truth is they have enormous budgets for legal companies to bury any action, or stall it for years.
Mobil has biggest synthetic oil market share, tens of millions vehicle using Mobil 1 oil if their oils cause damage to thousands engines, they would have many class action lawsuits.
Usually if larger companies found liable jury would reward plaintiff much larger amount than smaller companies.
Also, bad press would cause company to loose market share, and this one is the real killer.
You tell me which of the biggest companies of any industry don't care for their market share ? All companies love to increase their market and intentionally producing defective product(s) to make few extra pennies profit isn't in their game plan.
Hello all,
I think people are forgetting one very important thing. A big company is just as likely to mis-represent a product as a small one. Do people honestly believe that the big oil companies never tell fibs about their product? People assume that because these companies have alot to loose if they create a product that damages a vehicle, that they are less likely to lie?! Really? The truth is they have enormous budgets for legal companies to bury any action, or stall it for years.
Mobil has biggest synthetic oil market share, tens of millions vehicle using Mobil 1 oil if their oils cause damage to thousands engines, they would have many class action lawsuits.
Usually if larger companies found liable jury would reward plaintiff much larger amount than smaller companies.
Also, bad press would cause company to loose market share, and this one is the real killer.
You tell me which of the biggest companies of any industry don't care for their market share ? All companies love to increase their market and intentionally producing defective product(s) to make few extra pennies profit isn't in their game plan.
G'day,
HTSS_TR, you make a good point, Mobil have a huge share and they would be loath to create a product that was defective, however they are equally likely to misrepresent or fib about a products properties or benefits as small companies are accused constantly of doing. If a customer honestly thought a product damaged their car, do you think for a minute, in all honesty, that the customer would stand a chance proving it?
Bad press affecting business? not a problem. The press is just as easy to buy off as a court case is to bury beneath years of legalese. Most press simply read off "press releases" that are issued by who ever. Journalists don't really investigate anymore, they just re-edit press releases. And consider for a second the users on this forum, there are perhaps 5000 active users, how many of these are employees of oil companies? It is actually a standard practice in the advertising market to use forums and social media to propigate products or information. One word is virus marketing.
For instance "Bob" just bought a new mower, wonders what oil to use, "bob the oil guy" pops up on google first, and Bob reads the posts, asks questions, and is helpfully guided into his decision. How many helpful forum members are actually employed to spread the benefits of their companies products? Too often children are "product boosted" as a way of "info spreading" via social media. This practice pressures parents into purchasing said product. there are leaked company reports that track purchasing trends in nieghbourhoods before and after such marketing. To us it may seem alot of effort to sell game consoles, but it works.
How many users here appear overly devout and persistant regarding product useage? Are these posters "company plants?"
Big oil companies lying? perish the thought:
http://grist.org/article/this-just-in-pretty-much-all-major-oil-companies-are-lying-liars/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=144822
https://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/Beware-of-the-labelling.pdf -THIS IS GOOD READING
http://www.1st-in-synthetics.com/a_defining_moment_for_synthetics.htm -THIS IS GOOD READING
http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2014/11/13...lls-reputation/
ALL companies want only the best to be said about their products, thats why they hire advertising companies to polish a product or "re-write" the english language to use odd or convoluted language, ie: "synthetic ain't actually often synthetic"
HTSS_TR, you make a good point, Mobil have a huge share and they would be loath to create a product that was defective, however they are equally likely to misrepresent or fib about a products properties or benefits as small companies are accused constantly of doing. If a customer honestly thought a product damaged their car, do you think for a minute, in all honesty, that the customer would stand a chance proving it?
Bad press affecting business? not a problem. The press is just as easy to buy off as a court case is to bury beneath years of legalese. Most press simply read off "press releases" that are issued by who ever. Journalists don't really investigate anymore, they just re-edit press releases. And consider for a second the users on this forum, there are perhaps 5000 active users, how many of these are employees of oil companies? It is actually a standard practice in the advertising market to use forums and social media to propigate products or information. One word is virus marketing.
For instance "Bob" just bought a new mower, wonders what oil to use, "bob the oil guy" pops up on google first, and Bob reads the posts, asks questions, and is helpfully guided into his decision. How many helpful forum members are actually employed to spread the benefits of their companies products? Too often children are "product boosted" as a way of "info spreading" via social media. This practice pressures parents into purchasing said product. there are leaked company reports that track purchasing trends in nieghbourhoods before and after such marketing. To us it may seem alot of effort to sell game consoles, but it works.
How many users here appear overly devout and persistant regarding product useage? Are these posters "company plants?"
Big oil companies lying? perish the thought:
http://grist.org/article/this-just-in-pretty-much-all-major-oil-companies-are-lying-liars/
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=144822
https://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/Beware-of-the-labelling.pdf -THIS IS GOOD READING
http://www.1st-in-synthetics.com/a_defining_moment_for_synthetics.htm -THIS IS GOOD READING
http://royaldutchshellplc.com/2014/11/13...lls-reputation/
ALL companies want only the best to be said about their products, thats why they hire advertising companies to polish a product or "re-write" the english language to use odd or convoluted language, ie: "synthetic ain't actually often synthetic"
Do recall that many posters here do know what different oil group numbers involve, and are well ahead of the curve of the general public, and even the automotive enthusiast, as to whether a synthetic is really a synthetic. Also, an important claim for many snake oils is improved fuel economy. Now, if the fuel economy improvements were even measurable in the lab, the OEMs would have jumped on them already.
With respect to oil company plants here, well there may be some. Some do work for oil companies and have said so. Some can't say which ones. Others do.
I've been asked if I work for Imperial Oil, Shell, and Petro-Canada during my tenure here. I don't work for any oil company, although one of my companies has done work for just about every major oil company that has a presence in western Canada.
And I use the same oil all the time in my two vehicles, devoutly and persistently, except they're from different oil companies.
With respect to oil company plants here, well there may be some. Some do work for oil companies and have said so. Some can't say which ones. Others do.
I've been asked if I work for Imperial Oil, Shell, and Petro-Canada during my tenure here. I don't work for any oil company, although one of my companies has done work for just about every major oil company that has a presence in western Canada.
And I use the same oil all the time in my two vehicles, devoutly and persistently, except they're from different oil companies.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: mr_blackstock
Hello all,
I think people are forgetting one very important thing. A big company is just as likely to mis-represent a product as a small one.
And on that note, I don't think Lucas is a "small" company, and, as was pointed to early on, likely the product the OP is upset about being construed as snake oil.
The problem is that we have a very good idea what is and isn't in Lucas and subsequently the product is understandably disliked on here. As Shannow said, lack of failure is not proof of performance. Using Lucas and something not blowing up does not a case for the product improving the fully formulated oil you've dumped it in make.
Hello all,
I think people are forgetting one very important thing. A big company is just as likely to mis-represent a product as a small one.
And on that note, I don't think Lucas is a "small" company, and, as was pointed to early on, likely the product the OP is upset about being construed as snake oil.
The problem is that we have a very good idea what is and isn't in Lucas and subsequently the product is understandably disliked on here. As Shannow said, lack of failure is not proof of performance. Using Lucas and something not blowing up does not a case for the product improving the fully formulated oil you've dumped it in make.
I think there is a contingent of members here who react to additives like they are a FRAM OCOD.LOL..
But seriously,Don't forget to tip your waitress.
There are additives designed for specific situations and work well in their designed parameters.Then there are additives that promise the moon and fail to reach orbit.There are additives out there that have been around for years when oil was not as high of a quality as it is now,and are coasting on their reputations.They don't harm or help anything.Then there are some that are sub-par and may actually harm your engine.
And there are members here who are critical of every one of them.Whether they have used them or not.Nothing wrong with constructive criticism but a knee jerk reaction can be done without.
MY 2 c
But seriously,Don't forget to tip your waitress.
There are additives designed for specific situations and work well in their designed parameters.Then there are additives that promise the moon and fail to reach orbit.There are additives out there that have been around for years when oil was not as high of a quality as it is now,and are coasting on their reputations.They don't harm or help anything.Then there are some that are sub-par and may actually harm your engine.
And there are members here who are critical of every one of them.Whether they have used them or not.Nothing wrong with constructive criticism but a knee jerk reaction can be done without.
MY 2 c
Experience with a product isn't necessary to judge its value. I rely on other people's mistakes rather than making my own, where possible. I know I shouldn't drink bleach, thanks to other people's experience. I don't need to try it myself to judge it as a bad idea.
<----Snake oil basher! Just exercising my 1st amendment rights here. It is called "snake oil" for a good reason. If YOU want to use this garbage, go right ahead. Don't ever try and convince a knowledgeable individual what good stuff it is though. You make yourself look bad.
Garak, "experience with a product isn't necesseary to judge it's value" are you for real? You would rather rely on hear say and anecdotal evidence? isn't that exactly the same sort of line of thought everyone is ear bashing the pro additive people with? "If it ain't proven it don't exist" You can't see atoms, yet you know they exist...
HM12460, from what you are saying, if a person wants to use "garbage", go ahead, but try and tell anyone else you like it and you look stupid?! I am happy that you are o.k with people spouting lies, as long as it does not go against your belief...
I think I discovered the flat earth society here guys.
In the words of that great american "backlot" anthem by Denis Leary, "why don't you just shut up and sing this song pal"
HM12460, from what you are saying, if a person wants to use "garbage", go ahead, but try and tell anyone else you like it and you look stupid?! I am happy that you are o.k with people spouting lies, as long as it does not go against your belief...
I think I discovered the flat earth society here guys.
In the words of that great american "backlot" anthem by Denis Leary, "why don't you just shut up and sing this song pal"
2004 Sunfire 2.2L EcoTec bought new.- GC 0W-30 every 10k Km.(6250 Mi.) from about 100K Km.(62.5K Mi.). - TCW3 and MolyslipE from about 150k Km.(94k Mi.) - Sold at 477k Km.(298k Mi.) in 2012 - Last I heard approaching 550k Km.(343k Mi.) and still running on original engine, transmission failed though - New owner, an auto mechanic, says it's starting to burn a little oil.
Did the additives help? Maybe. Did the additives hurt? apparently not.
2012 Buick Verano 2.4L bought new - Mobil 1 0W-40 at first oil change and every 10k Km.(6250 Mi.) since - TCW3 and MolySlipE since new. Just passed 324k Km.(202k Mi.) and not a problem yet.
Do the additives help? Maybe. Do the additives hurt? apparently not.
Did the additives help? Maybe. Did the additives hurt? apparently not.
2012 Buick Verano 2.4L bought new - Mobil 1 0W-40 at first oil change and every 10k Km.(6250 Mi.) since - TCW3 and MolySlipE since new. Just passed 324k Km.(202k Mi.) and not a problem yet.
Do the additives help? Maybe. Do the additives hurt? apparently not.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
It's not bashing it's called science, we have the technology to know what's not in Lucas oil stabilizer so it's a snake oil by science not opinion.
I'm guessing Lucas is what we're talking about since the last thread about additives you participated in involved that.
I just mean all the additives.
I just wanted to stir the pot on the people that always post that all additives are a waste of OUR own money.
I haven't even read over very many of the comments because I was just curious how many would actually respond.
Sorry for getting a heated or bogus topic that is a no win OR a win win for the ones who try additives, hence, the name of the board topic is OTCoil additives.
I personally like fuel additives than oil additives. I was just curious how many responses I would get.
Have a good day.
I have to say that certain additives do help my truck and especially my Cherokee out. It keeps me from overhauling the engine and keeps my power on it good to me and my driving habits.
Like I said I just wanted to stir the pot.
It's not bashing it's called science, we have the technology to know what's not in Lucas oil stabilizer so it's a snake oil by science not opinion.
I'm guessing Lucas is what we're talking about since the last thread about additives you participated in involved that.
I just mean all the additives.
I just wanted to stir the pot on the people that always post that all additives are a waste of OUR own money.
I haven't even read over very many of the comments because I was just curious how many would actually respond.
Sorry for getting a heated or bogus topic that is a no win OR a win win for the ones who try additives, hence, the name of the board topic is OTCoil additives.
I personally like fuel additives than oil additives. I was just curious how many responses I would get.
Have a good day.
I have to say that certain additives do help my truck and especially my Cherokee out. It keeps me from overhauling the engine and keeps my power on it good to me and my driving habits.
Like I said I just wanted to stir the pot.
Last edited:
Totally depends on the vehicle in question, and what the owner hopes to get from it.
Most on here agree Techron is good, but, if you use it and don't notice any difference then you write it off as snake oil.
By the same logic, take something we generally agree IS snake oil, like Lucas Oil Treatment. Now imagine somebody using 0w16 in an app that calls for 20w50 - ey add the LOS and bring the sump closer to its target operational viscosity, reducing valve train noise.
That guy is then convinced that our LOS snake oil is the best thing since sliced bread.
Context is everything!!
Most on here agree Techron is good, but, if you use it and don't notice any difference then you write it off as snake oil.
By the same logic, take something we generally agree IS snake oil, like Lucas Oil Treatment. Now imagine somebody using 0w16 in an app that calls for 20w50 - ey add the LOS and bring the sump closer to its target operational viscosity, reducing valve train noise.
That guy is then convinced that our LOS snake oil is the best thing since sliced bread.
Context is everything!!
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
It's not bashing it's called science, we have the technology to know what's not in Lucas oil stabilizer so it's a snake oil by science not opinion
Yeah, yeah, yeah... and other scientists will come along and say it does actually work.
You cannot prove that it doesn't work no more than those that claim "global warming" can be proven to be caused by mankind when it has been documented that the earth has gone thru cycles of heat and cold for thousands of years.
Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, so thank you for sharing yours.
It's not bashing it's called science, we have the technology to know what's not in Lucas oil stabilizer so it's a snake oil by science not opinion
Yeah, yeah, yeah... and other scientists will come along and say it does actually work.
You cannot prove that it doesn't work no more than those that claim "global warming" can be proven to be caused by mankind when it has been documented that the earth has gone thru cycles of heat and cold for thousands of years.
Opinions are like belly buttons. Everybody has one, so thank you for sharing yours.
Originally Posted By: mr_blackstock
Garak, "experience with a product isn't necesseary to judge it's value" are you for real? You would rather rely on hear say and anecdotal evidence? isn't that exactly the same sort of line of thought everyone is ear bashing the pro additive people with? "If it ain't proven it don't exist" You can't see atoms, yet you know they exist...
I can read papers on the discovery of atoms, and replicate experiments, if I have the smarts and the facilities. And, I wasn't saying I was relying on anecdotal evidence, either. I haven't seen any evidence that these snake oils help do anything other than burn through money. When I've had taxis go a million kilometres without anything except conventional oil, and no additives, I'm not exactly sure what an additive is supposed to provide me.
Garak, "experience with a product isn't necesseary to judge it's value" are you for real? You would rather rely on hear say and anecdotal evidence? isn't that exactly the same sort of line of thought everyone is ear bashing the pro additive people with? "If it ain't proven it don't exist" You can't see atoms, yet you know they exist...
I can read papers on the discovery of atoms, and replicate experiments, if I have the smarts and the facilities. And, I wasn't saying I was relying on anecdotal evidence, either. I haven't seen any evidence that these snake oils help do anything other than burn through money. When I've had taxis go a million kilometres without anything except conventional oil, and no additives, I'm not exactly sure what an additive is supposed to provide me.
Garak,
You make a fair point, and an interesting observation about taxis. It is normal for taxis to get very high mileages. Why so high when most peoples cars manage on average 350,000? because the taxis usually are left running for most of their work day. Whereas a normally used car will be started and stopped numerous times a day.
Most damage to engines occurs at start up, almost everyone would agree to this. Garak, you have been using oil additives all your life, they are already in the oil. But the additive percentages are designed to satisfy all automotive applications, one oil "formula" to suit every car, this is different from viscosity. Additive only manufacturers are servicing the market that needs a specific need fulfilled. Chefs don't buy their knives from the supermarket, they see a specialist store. The oil you buy, with it's "perfect" formula of additives already added, is intended to suit any car, in general, so do you think the additives that are in your oil will offer the best protection for your needs? Maybe you 4Wheel drive all weekend? And yet you use the same oil as "Karen" who drops the kids off to school in the morning and collects them in the arvo in her 95' Honda Accord.
Now, the term "stabilser", while being a bloody odd name for an additive, may actually mean something. While I am not an expert on oils, I will bluster along. "Sheer" is something you do not want to occur to your oil, something like the tiny film that protects the metal surfaces gets thinner and thinner as the oil breaks down. From what little I know, gearbox or diff oil has a very high sheer factor in the oil. From what I know, "stabilsers" supposedly contain high levels of additives to prevent oil sheer. So, the term "stabilser" may mean "prevent continued decay or breakdown of oil". Or like in a hospital ward, "his condition has stabilsed, not improved, nor worsened"
Now, if you change your oil every 5000 miles or kms, regardless of what oil, you most likely do not need additional additives, as your oil is just starting to break down. If you are lazy and want to change less, use synthetic. Anyway, for those whose lubricant needs exceed what the big companies offer, use additives! I use them because my bikes are very high revving, quite old, and air cooled. So, engineering tolerances are alot looser than modern water cooled bike engines, hence the need for an extra thick layer of oil film between my metal bits.
You make a fair point, and an interesting observation about taxis. It is normal for taxis to get very high mileages. Why so high when most peoples cars manage on average 350,000? because the taxis usually are left running for most of their work day. Whereas a normally used car will be started and stopped numerous times a day.
Most damage to engines occurs at start up, almost everyone would agree to this. Garak, you have been using oil additives all your life, they are already in the oil. But the additive percentages are designed to satisfy all automotive applications, one oil "formula" to suit every car, this is different from viscosity. Additive only manufacturers are servicing the market that needs a specific need fulfilled. Chefs don't buy their knives from the supermarket, they see a specialist store. The oil you buy, with it's "perfect" formula of additives already added, is intended to suit any car, in general, so do you think the additives that are in your oil will offer the best protection for your needs? Maybe you 4Wheel drive all weekend? And yet you use the same oil as "Karen" who drops the kids off to school in the morning and collects them in the arvo in her 95' Honda Accord.
Now, the term "stabilser", while being a bloody odd name for an additive, may actually mean something. While I am not an expert on oils, I will bluster along. "Sheer" is something you do not want to occur to your oil, something like the tiny film that protects the metal surfaces gets thinner and thinner as the oil breaks down. From what little I know, gearbox or diff oil has a very high sheer factor in the oil. From what I know, "stabilsers" supposedly contain high levels of additives to prevent oil sheer. So, the term "stabilser" may mean "prevent continued decay or breakdown of oil". Or like in a hospital ward, "his condition has stabilsed, not improved, nor worsened"
Now, if you change your oil every 5000 miles or kms, regardless of what oil, you most likely do not need additional additives, as your oil is just starting to break down. If you are lazy and want to change less, use synthetic. Anyway, for those whose lubricant needs exceed what the big companies offer, use additives! I use them because my bikes are very high revving, quite old, and air cooled. So, engineering tolerances are alot looser than modern water cooled bike engines, hence the need for an extra thick layer of oil film between my metal bits.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status
Similar threads
