Baseline Data, Redline 15w-40

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TooSlick

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Viscosity @ 100C, 14.7 Centistokes
TBN, 11.2

Additive Levels:

Boron, 36 ppm
Ca, 3131 ppm
P, 1261 ppm
Zn, 1334 ppm
Moly, 557 ppm

About what you'd expect for a high TBN diesel formulation, except for the Moly level. They are using an all Calcium based, detergent/dispersant additive chemistry with a nice amount of ZDDP.

TS
 
Kinda what I'd expect to see as well with them.

What really sticks in my mind is, If using a full synth, Such as in the case of Redline, so many people on here and other places I see claim that the full synth base oil provides a better film strength than any mineral, why do they need all this zddp and high amounts of moly for antiwear protection? Amsoil does the same with the higher levels of zddp.. It's just something that I can't let go I guess bcause so many people keep makeing that statement that a full synth has better film strength. I know I've heard you, and molakule and a couple of others say that, so maybe you can elaborate as to why so much barrier additive is used in these cases?????
 
Bob,

The reason for using higher levels of anti-wear and detergent/dispersant additives is to provide better protection from wear/deposits over extended drain intervals. The thickness of the layer formed by the antiwear additives isn't going to change if you have 1000 ppm of zinc, vs 1200 ppm of zinc. However, since these additives are depleted through use, it is helpful to have a high TBN, high ZDDP oil if you are going to run very long drain intervals. Keep in mind also that ZDDP is also an anti-oxidant, so it helps minimize oil thickening over long drains.

If you look at Mobil 1, it does a very good job with drain intervals in the 4000-7000 mile range. It would surprise me to see a significant difference in wear rates between Mobil 1, Amsoil, Redline, etc for short drain intervals in a street application. However, if you were to run each of these oils out to say 10,000-15,000 miles, then I do think you would see some variation in performance and oil degradation ...

Don't ask me about the moly ...I haven't see the benefits of using a solid film, extreme pressure lubricant in a synthetic engine oil. Certainly not at a 600 ppm level ....

TS
 
Nice answer TS, But lets take this a step further, it has been stated that synth's have a better film strength, and also seems that the molecular bonds of a synth can resist breaking down longer due to acids and such since the chemical bond is stronger,,... therefore, it should not have to rely on the antioxidant additives to maintain longer drain intervals if the base oil is more resistant. Again, better film strength, better molecular bonding, better resistance to breakdown, but yet higher levels of additives.. OK, you're stating this is for extended drains, so higher tbn for higher drains, but yet in schaeffers case we have standard mineral oil extending out like some synth's but start out with only a 10 tbn unlike some with 12.

My point I'm digging at is, this full synth theory of having a better film strength over a mineral just doesn't jive as I have seen it shear out as easily as a mineral and that's why it requires these barrier additives and such. As for antioxidants, why would it need more than the schaeffers mineral or even the blends as they will extend also, especially if you use the same filter change over and refresh oil like most do in mid stream. Your thoughts?
 
TooSlick,thanks for the post. I did not know Redline made a 15w40 oil. I must get out of this cave I am living in
smile.gif


Seriously,thanks for the post,I will go to their site and read on the application of it because man did they load that oil up with additives!I have read where Molakule stated that the good Moly is also a good antioxident or something simalar along the lines of . Maybe that is why they put so much in and with the rest of the additives to possible balance the package out? I dunno, newbie here
smile.gif


I would be interested in knowing if Redlines uses ZDDP or ZDTP in their line of oils
 
Well just visited their site. They make no bones about it,that is a Diesel oil only, they do not recommend it in a gas motor.

They also aren't so keen on a 5w30 Dino oil it seems for high rpm use. Redline and I agree there!

offtopic.gif

I wonder why Mobil does not add a little Polyol Ester to it's oil to "supe it up" ? Probable is the expense added to the OTC name they carry I suppose
 
Bob,

It is my understanding that the PAO's have only marginally higher film strength that a Group II or Group III petroleum basestock. It is the organic esters (diesters and polyol-esters) that have extremely high film strength. I remember seeing some data from 20+ years ago that showed the shear strength of esters was in the 3000+ psi range, vs 500-600 psi for a petroleum oil. Esters also have a polar attraction to metallic substrates, so they provide startup protection until the ZDDP becomes fully active. Some of the literature I've read indicates that ZDDP becomes full effective at approx 60C (142F)

The Timken machine you are using is applying a load that is well in excess of what an ester basestock alone will sustain. So in that case you are depending on anti-wear additives to provide protection. How well your test corrolates to wear rates in standardized engine tests (if at all) is open to debate.
wink.gif


I may have simply missed it, but I haven't seen anyone running 12k-15k drain intervals with the Schaeffers 5w30 or 10w30, gas engine oils ....
Perhaps you could post several examples of this?
 
quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:


I may have simply missed it, but I haven't seen anyone running 12k-15k drain intervals with the Schaeffers 5w30 or 10w30, gas engine oils ....
Perhaps you could post several examples of this?
Click to expand...
If you can wait until next year, I'm gearing up to try out a 12k interval with Schaeffer 10w30 blend in my Firebird. I may eventually settle on 9k intervals, but if the 9k oil analysis looks good enough, I might just try 12k once just to prove it can be done.
 
i been using redline's 15w40 and delvac 1 mix 5qts delvac 1 and 1 qt. redline 15w40 in my vic and 15w40 redline 2 qts and 5 qts. delvac 1 in my expy....i wanted some moly in the oil which gives a complete additive package
 
quote:
Don't ask me about the moly ...I haven't see the benefits of using a solid film, extreme pressure lubricant in a synthetic engine oil. Certainly not at a 600 ppm level ....
Click to expand...
Moly nor ZDDP forms solid films. ZDDP and moly provide mostly AW protection and some FM. Both of these additives (as well as Antimony DTC's) also provide anti-corrsion/anti-oxidant capabilities by coating the metals with a three-layer system of molecular films that become plastic under pressure and the resulting heat caused by pressure. ZDDP works around 150 to 300 F while Moly takes over from there and up to 500 F. AT lower temps, both of these additives provide some measure of FM activity as well.

The esters, and to a lesser extent PAO's, have higher film strengths than do mineral oils, and here I am referring to di-esters and polyol esters, not additive components that that arrive in the form of esters, such as ZDDP and Borate esters.

The esters provide a good measure of FM protection for the engine throught the whole operating range.

While the PAO/ester base oils can survive high temperature oxidation, and have lower volatility, and have inherently higher VII's (which implies longer duration drain intervals), weak additive packages can not. This is why more expensive and higher longevity additive packages are seen in full synthetics that are expected to survive longer drain intervals.
 
"redline diesel oil 15w40 has a gas rating like delvac 1."

I think this is correct but I also believe that Red Line has a diesel-only oil. Be sure of what you're putting in your gasoline engine.

--- Bror Jace
 
The only Redline 15W40 listed on their current site is the 15W40 Diesel Engine Oil.
It is also listed as a "Fleet" oil.
 
Some of the FM's would be the base esters, the Moly, the ZDDP, and the Boron.

Some VII's can also act as Friction Modifiers.

[ April 30, 2003, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by TooSlick:
Bob,

The thickness of the layer formed by the antiwear additives isn't going to change if you have 1000 ppm of zinc, vs 1200 ppm of zinc.

Don't ask me about the moly ...I haven't see the benefits of using a solid film, extreme pressure lubricant in a synthetic engine oil. Certainly not at a 600 ppm level ....

TS
Click to expand...
2 Questions;

Why does M1R have so much ZDDP if the thickness of the AW film is the same and M1R certainly isnt a long drain oil? Ditto with Torco etc

Besides FM, does Moly really do anything in terms of bring wear in hard revving engines then? Is this why M1R has no significant amounts of it?
 
I pulled this from the Redline website

Provides double the detergent and acid-neutralizing ability of conventional petroleum diesel engine oils for maximum engine cleanliness

Double the detergent ? Yeah right
smile.gif


More than the Shell 5w-40 but that about it
 
Whould there be any issue running this oil in a 4 stroke, fuel injected, turbo charged personal watercraft engine? There is no clutch or catalytic converter.

Based on Mola's response about the detergents (not really double) I presume this is a non issue.

Comments? Thanks a bunch.
 
quote:
Originally posted by Motorbike:
I pulled this from the Redline website

Provides double the detergent and acid-neutralizing ability of conventional petroleum diesel engine oils for maximum engine cleanliness

Double the detergent ? Yeah right
smile.gif


More than the Shell 5w-40 but that about it
Click to expand...
Ability may be the key word here. The natural cleanng ability of redlines esters may help substantiate there claim. I know other oils also have esters, but few have as much and many have none so on average it may clean about two times as well even though one time may be plenty.

[ June 06, 2004, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: goodvibes ]
 
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