In the eighties they raised rates and this strategy caused immediate pain ( the people who were over-extended got flushed out of the system, sort of how a good oil filter might work). So, fast forward to the kindler-gentler new century, and we're trying a different tactic: lowering rates, which at first sounds better, but as you see every time you fuel up or buy groceries, this "new" way seems to be worse for ALL? I gotta think raising the rates is a better tactic. Someone show me how lower rates are better?
Banking bailout: and so it begins.......
- Thread starter VeeDubb
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Families can double up if they can't afford their McMansions payments. Houses are 2x as big as they were 50 years ago. Let the housing market collapse and stop digging the hole even deeper. Evict the bad borrowers and clean house. Put fraudulent lenders to work at Unicor instead of the harmless potheads. It'll ease up on oil consumption, too, as a bonus.
A good read on the subject:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1083184
tpitcher,
Good for you. If most americans managed their finances like you, we wouldn't be in this mess. And before Gary Allen jumps down my throat, yes, I include bankers as well.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1083184
tpitcher,
Good for you. If most americans managed their finances like you, we wouldn't be in this mess. And before Gary Allen jumps down my throat, yes, I include bankers as well.
Some insight into what Bernanke's strategy is:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/08/whats-ben-doing-very-wonkish/
Will it work? According to the LIBOR graph, it hasn't yet. Those rates keep coming down after an injection of pain killers only to rise again a few weeks later. Not a good sign.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/08/whats-ben-doing-very-wonkish/
Will it work? According to the LIBOR graph, it hasn't yet. Those rates keep coming down after an injection of pain killers only to rise again a few weeks later. Not a good sign.
It would have been better to do that right from the beginning, instead of ballooning the money supply, and causing a commodities bubble.
I think we're headed for a serious bout of stagflation. I can't believe people are talking deflation. Perhaps federal reserve officials and bankers should be required to fill up their own gas tanks - preferably a V10 Ford Excursion, and also buy $100 worth of groceries THEMSELVES every month and see what it gets them.
Maybe they'll think twice about bailing people out and flooding us with money when the most significant cost we have, energy, is skyrocketing.
Maybe they'll think twice about bailing people out and flooding us with money when the most significant cost we have, energy, is skyrocketing.
Originally Posted By: Al
I thought Grenspan was bad. Bernanke is brain dead. Its so easy to see that the life we are living here in the U.S. is an illusion funded by foreign bonds. We can't afford the world we live in, we can't afford the oil that we are importing, we can't afford the houses we live in, we can't afford the credit card debt that we have, the government can't afford the money its handing out, it can't afford the medical costs that it funds, it can't afford the future 20 trillion of entitlements that are gonna occur in th next 10 to 20 years........none of this.
Within a few years (if it goes that far) people will not believe what they are gonna' see.
Ohhh this country (USA) is going to be in a world of hurt. The Bolshevik revolution, the Wiemer republic, all of that is going to look like a kiddie birthday party compared to whats in store for all of you (and me too
). See what happens when you give people, who are clueless, the right to vote! They vote for idiots who sell out the country and your future for a cheese burger and cheap gas. This is proof that Democracy doesn't work. But thats OK, because soon your puppet masters will be in full control and you won't have to make anymore decisions, especially whether you live or die, because that will all be decided for you.
And don't think your guns will save you, they won't
you can add Kissenger to the list with Greenspan and Bernanke
Learn what a sociopath and a narcissist is and you might have some idea of what you are dealing with.
I thought Grenspan was bad. Bernanke is brain dead. Its so easy to see that the life we are living here in the U.S. is an illusion funded by foreign bonds. We can't afford the world we live in, we can't afford the oil that we are importing, we can't afford the houses we live in, we can't afford the credit card debt that we have, the government can't afford the money its handing out, it can't afford the medical costs that it funds, it can't afford the future 20 trillion of entitlements that are gonna occur in th next 10 to 20 years........none of this.
Within a few years (if it goes that far) people will not believe what they are gonna' see.
Ohhh this country (USA) is going to be in a world of hurt. The Bolshevik revolution, the Wiemer republic, all of that is going to look like a kiddie birthday party compared to whats in store for all of you (and me too
And don't think your guns will save you, they won't
you can add Kissenger to the list with Greenspan and Bernanke
Learn what a sociopath and a narcissist is and you might have some idea of what you are dealing with.
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He did not create this mess, but he also doesn't know how to respond to it as I'm sure his general beliefs about the global financial markets were similar to oilrisers'.......until now.
So, Al and I should be co-chairmen of the operation and, at least, inform the public that we're indeed in a mess? Or should we do as he did and remain silent and not admit that we're in a mess and that hard times were pending?
Tell me that the financial and commerce sectors wouldn't be hammering everyone that could bring pressure to bear upon me to keep the flood gates open as long as possible so that they could capitalize on the prolonged false euphoria?
These are not numb and ignorant people. They're well qualified ....and, in fact, tasked to see just these predictable, immutable, collisions. They are supposed to prevent exactly what has and is occurring.
They enabled our economic destruction and played "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil". A head on a post ..in a post.
..but one person's reputation and failure is a small price to pay for taking 300M to the cleaners.
A chimp in a suit could have done better.
He did not create this mess, but he also doesn't know how to respond to it as I'm sure his general beliefs about the global financial markets were similar to oilrisers'.......until now.
So, Al and I should be co-chairmen of the operation and, at least, inform the public that we're indeed in a mess? Or should we do as he did and remain silent and not admit that we're in a mess and that hard times were pending?
Tell me that the financial and commerce sectors wouldn't be hammering everyone that could bring pressure to bear upon me to keep the flood gates open as long as possible so that they could capitalize on the prolonged false euphoria?
These are not numb and ignorant people. They're well qualified ....and, in fact, tasked to see just these predictable, immutable, collisions. They are supposed to prevent exactly what has and is occurring.
They enabled our economic destruction and played "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil". A head on a post ..in a post.
..but one person's reputation and failure is a small price to pay for taking 300M to the cleaners.
A chimp in a suit could have done better.
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The problem is this: while we were starting to see the symptoms of this crisis play out, Congress was holding hearings on steroids in baseball and the govnmt. comes to the conclusion that we need even more free money. Like we're gonna spend our way out of debt...My brother tried that. He's a supply sider. New truck, new bed, new stereo, TV... "no interest for 1 year"
Originally Posted By: Loobed
Ohhh this country (USA) is going to be in a world of hurt. The Bolshevik revolution, the Wiemer republic, all of that is going to look like a kiddie birthday party compared to whats in store for all of you (and me too
). See what happens when you give people, who are clueless, the right to vote! They vote for idiots who sell out the country and your future for a cheese burger and cheap gas. This is proof that Democracy doesn't work. But thats OK, because soon your puppet masters will be in full control and you won't have to make anymore decisions, especially whether you live or die, because that will all be decided for you.
I got a laugh or too out of this. Unfortunately, there is a grain of truth here. The average american voter is completely clueless and can't see through the smokescreens put up by the political strategists. The fact that Hillary's personality "sucks compared to Obama's" and that McCain might not be "Christian enough" are major compaign themes is testament to some of the jaw dropping ignorance out there.
Ohhh this country (USA) is going to be in a world of hurt. The Bolshevik revolution, the Wiemer republic, all of that is going to look like a kiddie birthday party compared to whats in store for all of you (and me too
I got a laugh or too out of this. Unfortunately, there is a grain of truth here. The average american voter is completely clueless and can't see through the smokescreens put up by the political strategists. The fact that Hillary's personality "sucks compared to Obama's" and that McCain might not be "Christian enough" are major compaign themes is testament to some of the jaw dropping ignorance out there.
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Success at anything depends on honesty. Maintain a good connection with reality, and things will work out. Human relationships, whether economic or emotional, also depend on honesty. Competitive free market economics depends on honesty between buyers and sellers, and in fact enforcement of honesty is one legitimate role of government in this system. Democracy depends on honesty and openness.
First, you have to know where you are. Next, you decide where you want to go.
First, you have to know where you are. Next, you decide where you want to go.
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Originally Posted By: VeeDubb
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
A chimp in a suit could have done better.
Then let's hear it. What is the Gary Allen plan to solving the credit crises and restoring America to greatness?
I wouldn't have let it get to this stage to have to fix it. I've been sounding the horn since the Reagan administration and the "borrow and spend - shop to you drop - S&L Crisis" scam. Two administrations and the future that will never be.
I've been sounding the horn and I've been blown off as a kook for all by the last 5 minutes (so to speak). Meanwhile, most have been throwing a party thinking that they're really making money when they are merely playing a game of reduced unavoidable losses. They never have ..nor ever will admit that they were also victims ...of they're own ignor(e)ance. They too thought that they were above the dividing line of payment. They were wrong.
Do you really believe that something like the S&L Crisis evolved in a vacuum and emerged in full bloom..with all the highly paid and specifically tasked personnel that were there to track such things? It's the same thing here.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
A chimp in a suit could have done better.
Then let's hear it. What is the Gary Allen plan to solving the credit crises and restoring America to greatness?
I wouldn't have let it get to this stage to have to fix it. I've been sounding the horn since the Reagan administration and the "borrow and spend - shop to you drop - S&L Crisis" scam. Two administrations and the future that will never be.
I've been sounding the horn and I've been blown off as a kook for all by the last 5 minutes (so to speak). Meanwhile, most have been throwing a party thinking that they're really making money when they are merely playing a game of reduced unavoidable losses. They never have ..nor ever will admit that they were also victims ...of they're own ignor(e)ance. They too thought that they were above the dividing line of payment. They were wrong.
Do you really believe that something like the S&L Crisis evolved in a vacuum and emerged in full bloom..with all the highly paid and specifically tasked personnel that were there to track such things? It's the same thing here.
I agree oilyriser. But in practical terms, neither our current political system nor our economic/regulatory environment rewards honesty. Does anybody really believe that ANY political candidate who made it to the top of the political heap (in either party) in our current system did it through honesty? Under the *current system*, I view politicians like I view my lawyer......I only ask whether the person can get the job done - further questions about the person's "moral character" or "integrity" is currently irrelevant and an exercise in self delusion.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
I wouldn't have let it get to this stage to have to fix it. I've been sounding the horn since the Reagan administration and the "borrow and spend - shop to you drop - S&L Crisis" scam. Two administrations and the future that will never be.
Then why the assault on Bernanke? I didn't know he was Fed chief under Reagan.
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I've been sounding the horn and I've been blown off as a kook for all by the last 5 minutes (so to speak).
Perhaps it's something to do with the mode of delivery rather than the message. For instance, rather than just making the point, it is usually followed by a sermon like this:
Quote:
Meanwhile, most have been throwing a party thinking that they're really making money when they are merely playing a game of reduced unavoidable losses. They never have ..nor ever will admit that they were also victims ...of they're own ignor(e)ance. They too thought that they were above the dividing line of payment. They were wrong.
which, while probably true, still doesn't change the fact that those who managed themselves more responsibly have a heck of a lot more freedom and flexibility than those who didn't. Does that mean they didn't have any losses? No. The current crises will be socialized. But let's speak in relative rather than absolute terms. In absolute terms everyone will be taken down a notch. In relative terms, those who prepared and adjusted will not be in the desperate state of those who didn't.
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Do you really believe that something like the S&L Crisis evolved in a vacuum and emerged in full bloom..with all the highly paid and specifically tasked personnel that were there to track such things? It's the same thing here.
When claiming that somebody has intentionally committed a crime (i.e. Bernanke has commited treason) one has to first ask the question: what is the motive? What is Bernanke's motive for intentionally destroying America? What is his payoff? In fact, what was Milton Friedman and George Stigler's payoff for inspiring the regulatory environment that led to the current mess? You put too much faith in the "smarts" of these people. Smart does not equal perspective and freedom from blind adherence to ideology.
I wouldn't have let it get to this stage to have to fix it. I've been sounding the horn since the Reagan administration and the "borrow and spend - shop to you drop - S&L Crisis" scam. Two administrations and the future that will never be.
Then why the assault on Bernanke? I didn't know he was Fed chief under Reagan.
Quote:
I've been sounding the horn and I've been blown off as a kook for all by the last 5 minutes (so to speak).
Perhaps it's something to do with the mode of delivery rather than the message. For instance, rather than just making the point, it is usually followed by a sermon like this:
Quote:
Meanwhile, most have been throwing a party thinking that they're really making money when they are merely playing a game of reduced unavoidable losses. They never have ..nor ever will admit that they were also victims ...of they're own ignor(e)ance. They too thought that they were above the dividing line of payment. They were wrong.
which, while probably true, still doesn't change the fact that those who managed themselves more responsibly have a heck of a lot more freedom and flexibility than those who didn't. Does that mean they didn't have any losses? No. The current crises will be socialized. But let's speak in relative rather than absolute terms. In absolute terms everyone will be taken down a notch. In relative terms, those who prepared and adjusted will not be in the desperate state of those who didn't.
Quote:
Do you really believe that something like the S&L Crisis evolved in a vacuum and emerged in full bloom..with all the highly paid and specifically tasked personnel that were there to track such things? It's the same thing here.
When claiming that somebody has intentionally committed a crime (i.e. Bernanke has commited treason) one has to first ask the question: what is the motive? What is Bernanke's motive for intentionally destroying America? What is his payoff? In fact, what was Milton Friedman and George Stigler's payoff for inspiring the regulatory environment that led to the current mess? You put too much faith in the "smarts" of these people. Smart does not equal perspective and freedom from blind adherence to ideology.
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What is his payoff?
...errr..and a president of the United States of America does what he does for the paycheck? It's what it empowers (in some cases) and enables (in many more).
How much money was on the line with continuing the scam?? How much are people willing to do for it? What's a couple of hundred million losers here or there?
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Smart does not equal perspective and freedom from blind adherence to ideology.
I agree ..at least half way. Didn't the French aristocracy assert that the bourgeoisie mideel-class~ didn't deserve the money that they had?? What would they do with it? They have no culture and grooming for such affluence. That's the ideology in force here. Many here share it.
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But let's speak in relative rather than absolute terms.
Why? It's the concept that's masked the real underlying corruption that's spelled our economic doom as a nation. You faired well, so the scam(s) were okay and you fed into them - participated in them ..and didn't protest them. Meanwhile, your fellow citizen ........and YOU TOO ..were made losers.
What is his payoff?
...errr..and a president of the United States of America does what he does for the paycheck? It's what it empowers (in some cases) and enables (in many more).
How much money was on the line with continuing the scam?? How much are people willing to do for it? What's a couple of hundred million losers here or there?
Quote:
Smart does not equal perspective and freedom from blind adherence to ideology.
I agree ..at least half way. Didn't the French aristocracy assert that the bourgeoisie mideel-class~ didn't deserve the money that they had?? What would they do with it? They have no culture and grooming for such affluence. That's the ideology in force here. Many here share it.
Quote:
But let's speak in relative rather than absolute terms.
Why? It's the concept that's masked the real underlying corruption that's spelled our economic doom as a nation. You faired well, so the scam(s) were okay and you fed into them - participated in them ..and didn't protest them. Meanwhile, your fellow citizen ........and YOU TOO ..were made losers.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
...errr..and a president of the United States of America does what he does for the paycheck? It's what it empowers (in some cases) and enables (in many more).
Right, and the President goes out and intentionally tries to destroy America right? Some legacy to leave to posterity. Incompetence and warped short-term re-election incentives probably have much more to do with bad policy, than a grand conspiracy plan conceived in some dark and shadowy backroom to bring America to her knees.
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I agree ..at least half way. Didn't the French aristocracy assert that the bourgeoisie mideel-class~ didn't deserve the money that they had?? What would they do with it? They have no culture and grooming for such affluence. That's the ideology in force here. Many here share it.
Oh please. Saying that people make bad decisions is a far cry from saying that people don't inherently "deserve" the money they have.
...errr..and a president of the United States of America does what he does for the paycheck? It's what it empowers (in some cases) and enables (in many more).
Right, and the President goes out and intentionally tries to destroy America right? Some legacy to leave to posterity. Incompetence and warped short-term re-election incentives probably have much more to do with bad policy, than a grand conspiracy plan conceived in some dark and shadowy backroom to bring America to her knees.
Quote:
I agree ..at least half way. Didn't the French aristocracy assert that the bourgeoisie mideel-class~ didn't deserve the money that they had?? What would they do with it? They have no culture and grooming for such affluence. That's the ideology in force here. Many here share it.
Oh please. Saying that people make bad decisions is a far cry from saying that people don't inherently "deserve" the money they have.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
But let's speak in relative rather than absolute terms.
Why? It's the concept that's masked the real underlying corruption that's spelled our economic doom as a nation. You faired well, so the scam(s) were okay and you fed into them - participated in them ..and didn't protest them. Meanwhile, your fellow citizen ........and YOU TOO ..were made losers.
Another huge leap of logic. The reason why I bring up relative rather than absolute is because most studies have shown that happiness (and this is our ultimate goal isn't it?) has a lot less to do with absolute wealth and a lot more to do with relative wealth. See this as one example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/busine...xprod=permalink
Quote:
But let's speak in relative rather than absolute terms.
Why? It's the concept that's masked the real underlying corruption that's spelled our economic doom as a nation. You faired well, so the scam(s) were okay and you fed into them - participated in them ..and didn't protest them. Meanwhile, your fellow citizen ........and YOU TOO ..were made losers.
Another huge leap of logic. The reason why I bring up relative rather than absolute is because most studies have shown that happiness (and this is our ultimate goal isn't it?) has a lot less to do with absolute wealth and a lot more to do with relative wealth. See this as one example:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/busine...xprod=permalink
And just so there is no misunderstanding about the point of that article, the point is not to make ourselves "better" than others. The point is that our reference points and our standards of "what is enough to make us happy" often changes with societal benchmarks. Americans have way way more toys now than they did back in the 50s and 60s. Why are we so much less happy? Because what is considered by society to be "enough" has also changed. A bad recession will certainly cause a lot of misery in the short run because the adjustment process will be painful. But the long term change in saving habits and more realistic perceptions about materialism may actually have a positive effect on our society.
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