AWD with standard tires vs. FWD with snow tires?

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: BHopkins
There are a lot of variables that could change these results.

Not all snow tires are created equal. Not all all season tires are created equal. Not all AWD systems are created equal. There are all season tires out there that would out perform many snow tires. And there are AWD systems out there that will manage power better than others.

Generally, the results of the video are true. But one can't go out and buy any old snow tire brand, put them on a FWD and expect it to outperform any AWD. Very misleading video for the uninformed. As expected for the experienced in winter driving.

That video leaves too much "unknown" for me to give it much attention. For instance, what were the All Season tires left on the AWD vehicle? Not all AS tires are created equal. Were they a M+S rated AS or a summer/performance AS? Were they a light truck/suv class AS or a passenger car AS? That is some info I sure would like to know.

I have had god awful AS's for snow performance( Dunlop Grandtrek AT20, Goodyear Wrangler ST, Goodyear Wrangler HP, etc... )and I have had excellent snow performance out of AS's( Firestone Destination LE & LE2, Michelin LTX M+S & M+S2, Bridgestone Dueler HL Alenza, General Grabber HTS, etc... ). As said not all are created equal. My examples are light truck/suv class but I could do the same with passenger car class as well.

To do that comparison they went out and upgraded the tires on the FWD to snow tires which you can pretty much assume will at least be decent in snow and ice. However, why wouldn't they at least do an upgrade of the AS's on the AWD model to a tire known to perform well in the snow and ice? Or, at the least provide us the brand and model of the AS's used so we can see if they are known [censored] tires in the snow? How about the brand and model of the snow's used? They are not all created equal either. Some are super aggressive and would skew things big time vs a poor AS.

I can't place any faith in tests where we don't know all the info. Comes across as manipulated info to me. I am bias I admit because I run AS's year round. However, I know they are not all the same and I make sure I have quality ones on my vehicles. I have ZERO problems in the snow and ice running AS's as a result.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
There are all season tires out there that would out perform many snow tires.


Really? Examples would be nice.


Firestone Destination LE
Firestone Destination LE2
Bridgestone Dueler H/L Alenza
Michelin LTX M+S
Michelin LTX M+S2
General Grabber HTS

Those are some AS light truck and suv class tires that perform very well in the snow. Have run them all and NEVER had any problems in the snow. I can't compare them to snow tires because running such quality AS's I have not needed snows. I will only say if you run a quality AS that does well in the snow you don't "need" snow tires.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Snow tires all the time, baby. No matter what you're driving, dedicated snow tires will make it perform better on snow and ice. All-season tires are a compromise all year round. They give up grip in the dry and are nearly worthless in the snow. Snows are a wise investment. The first time you panic-stop 5-feet short of a car ahead of you, they will have paid for themselves.


I don't know what brand of AS's you have been running but the ones I run do great in the snow and ice. Even towing my duck boat. Also, if you keep a safe distance between you and don't hug the bumper you don't have 5 foot panic stops.

Just had to do an emergency stop on hard packed snow( so like ice )2 days ago. 2 cars in front of me. The lead car( Corolla I believe )decides to stop with now warning to make a turn. Did it too hard and fast and went skidding across the road. The Honda Pilot that had been following it, too close btw, slammed on the brakes and managed to skid the other way.

I don't know what they had for tires on either vehicle? Don't really care. I worry about what I have. I make sure my AS's are good snow performers and I drive appropriately for the conditions.

I was keeping a safe 2 car or so distance behind them. When I saw it happen I calmly pumped my brakes and kept control of my vehicle and easily stopped LONG before I was even close to them. NO sliding out of control( ABS kicked on for about 1/2 second so I lost traction that briefly - it was when I initially hit the brake - probably too hard ). NO problem. I did pucker a bit because it startled me but the tires had no problem even on that slick hard pack snow stopping me.

Firestone Destination LE2.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
There are all season tires out there that would out perform many snow tires.


Really? Examples would be nice.


Yes, I'm wondering about that myself.


I betcha someone mention the legendary Continental ExtemeContact DWS

Meh... I'm not all that impressed with them when it comes to winter driving, to be honest. They certainly do not outperform any winter tires that I know of.

My RWD car with proper winter tires handles snow and slush a lot better than my wife's AWD car with Conti DWS.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
There are all season tires out there that would out perform many snow tires.


Really? Examples would be nice.


Yes, I'm wondering about that myself.


I betcha someone mention the legendary Continental ExtemeContact DWS


I have Conti ExtremeContact DWS's, and they are next to worthless in the snow. I got caught in an early season snowfall last winter and had to drive home from work on them. I had to work overtime to keep the car running straight ahead and on the road. I put my Michelin X-Ice2's on when I got home. The Camaro is almost fun to drive on the snow with the winter tires on.

 

[kschachn]

A brand new AS tire is better in snow than one with some wear, but never, ever have I seen one that equals or outperforms a winter tire. No way, no how. I have Gislaved Nordfrost 5 tires on my BMW and General Altimax Arctic tires on my ECHO. The Sienna even with brand new all-seasons isn't in the same league.

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
There are all season tires out there that would out perform many snow tires.


Really? Examples would be nice.


Firestone Destination LE
Firestone Destination LE2
Bridgestone Dueler H/L Alenza
Michelin LTX M+S
Michelin LTX M+S2
General Grabber HTS

Those are some AS light truck and suv class tires that perform very well in the snow. Have run them all and NEVER had any problems in the snow. I can't compare them to snow tires because running such quality AS's I have not needed snows. I will only say if you run a quality AS that does well in the snow you don't "need" snow tires.

 

[UG_Passat]

the Skoda Yeti... the FWD has "performance" winters.

http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/gb/en/car/sheet/winter_sottozero_serie2.html

Could they have gone with say.... Nokian Hakkapeliitta R? sure.

OEM tires:
http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/148948-yeti-tyre-and-rim-guide/

Because the Pirelli performance snow tires are not available in 215/60r16, I'm guessing 17", which leaves the OEM tires to
Dunlop SP SPORT 01 225/50 R17 94W

Goodyear EXCELLENCE 225/50 R17 94W

Pirelli P ZERO ROSSO 225/50 R17 94W

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
There are all season tires out there that would out perform many snow tires.


Really? Examples would be nice.


Firestone Destination LE
Firestone Destination LE2
Bridgestone Dueler H/L Alenza
Michelin LTX M+S
Michelin LTX M+S2
General Grabber HTS

Those are some AS light truck and suv class tires that perform very well in the snow. Have run them all and NEVER had any problems in the snow. I can't compare them to snow tires because running such quality AS's I have not needed snows. I will only say if you run a quality AS that does well in the snow you don't "need" snow tires.


How can you make that statement if you have never used snow tires before?

I have used "quality" AS tires, but when I tried snow tires for the first time.... I became hooked, and left my "quality" AS tires for spring, summer & early fall duty.

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat


I betcha someone mention the legendary Continental ExtemeContact DWS

Meh... I'm not all that impressed with them when it comes to winter driving, to be honest. They certainly do not outperform any winter tires that I know of.

My RWD car with proper winter tires handles snow and slush a lot better than my wife's AWD car with Conti DWS.


Our Nokian WR G2's with 45k miles got a non-repairable flat on Subaru Legacy. So off we go to get the touted DWS. The WR G2's with 6/32" tread wear absolutely superior tires in winter conditions worn to brand new DWS tires. DWS is a very overated tire......

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: whip
I've said for years that AWD in snow is overrated. It helps you go, but not much else.


In my case beyond go, it seems to help with cornering too. My 07 Acura MDX SH-AWD can put power to a single rear wheel 100% to make it corner better. More or less an extension of stability control without the brakes. It really works especially in winter conditions and gravel roads especially. I am using winter biased all seasons(WR G2 SUV) and very happy.

IMHO AWD still wins if you encounter deep stuff or grades. Otherwise you definitely can get by in majority of conditions/vehicles by putting winter tires or simply driving intelligently with all-seasons in the winter/FWD.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Snow tires all the time, baby. No matter what you're driving, dedicated snow tires will make it perform better on snow and ice. All-season tires are a compromise all year round. They give up grip in the dry and are nearly worthless in the snow. Snows are a wise investment. The first time you panic-stop 5-feet short of a car ahead of you, they will have paid for themselves.


I don't know what brand of AS's you have been running but the ones I run do great in the snow and ice. Even towing my duck boat. Also, if you keep a safe distance between you and don't hug the bumper you don't have 5 foot panic stops.

Just had to do an emergency stop on hard packed snow( so like ice )2 days ago. 2 cars in front of me. The lead car( Corolla I believe )decides to stop with now warning to make a turn. Did it too hard and fast and went skidding across the road. The Honda Pilot that had been following it, too close btw, slammed on the brakes and managed to skid the other way.

I don't know what they had for tires on either vehicle? Don't really care. I worry about what I have. I make sure my AS's are good snow performers and I drive appropriately for the conditions.

I was keeping a safe 2 car or so distance behind them. When I saw it happen I calmly pumped my brakes and kept control of my vehicle and easily stopped LONG before I was even close to them. NO sliding out of control( ABS kicked on for about 1/2 second so I lost traction that briefly - it was when I initially hit the brake - probably too hard ). NO problem. I did pucker a bit because it startled me but the tires had no problem even on that slick hard pack snow stopping me.

Firestone Destination LE2.

I don't doubt that you can get around on all-seasons, but have you ever driven your vehicle on dedicated winter tires? I'll bet that you would be able to control the vehicle more effectively on winter tires than on all-seasons.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
There are all season tires out there that would out perform many snow tires.


Really? Examples would be nice.


Firestone Destination LE
Firestone Destination LE2
Bridgestone Dueler H/L Alenza
Michelin LTX M+S
Michelin LTX M+S2
General Grabber HTS

Those are some AS light truck and suv class tires that perform very well in the snow. Have run them all and NEVER had any problems in the snow. I can't compare them to snow tires because running such quality AS's I have not needed snows. I will only say if you run a quality AS that does well in the snow you don't "need" snow tires.


How can you make that statement if you have never used snow tires before?

I have used "quality" AS tires, but when I tried snow tires for the first time.... I became hooked, and left my "quality" AS tires for spring, summer & early fall duty.


How can I say I can't compare them to snow tires because running such quality AS's I have not needed snows.? I would say that is a pretty self explanatory statement. I haven't run snows because I have never needed more than the quality tires I have run.

What is so hard to understand?

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Snow tires all the time, baby. No matter what you're driving, dedicated snow tires will make it perform better on snow and ice. All-season tires are a compromise all year round. They give up grip in the dry and are nearly worthless in the snow. Snows are a wise investment. The first time you panic-stop 5-feet short of a car ahead of you, they will have paid for themselves.


I don't know what brand of AS's you have been running but the ones I run do great in the snow and ice. Even towing my duck boat. Also, if you keep a safe distance between you and don't hug the bumper you don't have 5 foot panic stops.

Just had to do an emergency stop on hard packed snow( so like ice )2 days ago. 2 cars in front of me. The lead car( Corolla I believe )decides to stop with now warning to make a turn. Did it too hard and fast and went skidding across the road. The Honda Pilot that had been following it, too close btw, slammed on the brakes and managed to skid the other way.

I don't know what they had for tires on either vehicle? Don't really care. I worry about what I have. I make sure my AS's are good snow performers and I drive appropriately for the conditions.

I was keeping a safe 2 car or so distance behind them. When I saw it happen I calmly pumped my brakes and kept control of my vehicle and easily stopped LONG before I was even close to them. NO sliding out of control( ABS kicked on for about 1/2 second so I lost traction that briefly - it was when I initially hit the brake - probably too hard ). NO problem. I did pucker a bit because it startled me but the tires had no problem even on that slick hard pack snow stopping me.

Firestone Destination LE2.

I don't doubt that you can get around on all-seasons, but have you ever driven your vehicle on dedicated winter tires? I'll bet that you would be able to control the vehicle more effectively on winter tires than on all-seasons.


As I have repeatedly said I have absolutely no problems running quality AS tires in the NH winters. I am not saying NH winters are the worst because plenty of places get the same as we do and even more of it but we get bad winters so I see a lot of snow and ice on the roads is the point. My driving during those winter months includes towing and launching/pulling my duck boat in bad weather( i.e. snow ).

I don't know how many times I can say it. I don't have any problems running a quality AS tire. I don't mean I crawl along barely moving and that I slip and slide all the time but manage to stay on the road. I drive at a reasonable speed for the conditions( you do that with snows too )and I seldom if ever slip or slide. If I do lose traction it is briefly and only in the worst of conditions. I can easily regain control because I know how to drive and the tires I use can handle it.

I don't see any reason to spend the money on an extra set of rims and tires or have tires swapped for winter. I get a tire I know handles snow well and it covers me year round. Again, I just don't have any problems with them at all.

 

[Garandman]

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-traction-test-what-price-traction
Car & Driver tested this very idea back in 1999. They used a FWD and AWD Audi A6 and a RWD and AWD Mercedes E320 to test the idea. Their conclusion was just about the same as ours.

Quote:
Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.

Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.

Winter tires boosted the rwd Benz's acceleration times more than they did the fwd Audi's, but in almost every other test, the inherently front-heavy Audis derived more benefit from the winter rubber than did the more evenly balanced Benzes. This finding certainly suggests that front-drive cars benefit from winter tires as much or more than rear-drivers do.


We did an informal test as our NH office on a private road next to it that was unplowed. It looked somewhat similar to the range at TON, with a sloped section, a flat section, and a cul de sac.

We had three cars:
- A Honda Accord with the stock Michelin All Seasons.
- A Honda Accord with Nokian RSI's.
- An Outback with Michelin All Seasons.

We rotated drivers and I told the other two "Don't say anything when we switch cars, just do the test and we will compare notes. We drove down the hill and stopped, drove around the cul de sac and stopped (on the flat), drove halfway up the hill and stopped, then started on the hill. There was about 6" of snow that had been partially packed down by other cars.

Unanimous conclusions.

1. The Accord with A/S was hopeless. It went straight when trying to turn in the cul de sac and could barely start moving after the hill stop. The owner went right out and bought snow tires the next day. He got Nokian WR's.

2. The Accord with RSI's [two generations back of their winter studless tires] was terrific. It stopped quickly with very little ABS interaction. It went around the cul de sac at reasonable speed and tracked very well. With traction control on it started OK on the hill but wouldn't generate much speed. Shutting off traction control worked a lot better.

3. The Outback was able to get moving from the hill stop a lot better than the A/S Accord and with less wheelspin than the Accord with TC off. But the stopping and turning were just as bad as the A/S. That one was mine and I got Nokian snows on it the next day.

 

[NHHEMI]

Originally Posted By: Garandman
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winter-traction-test-what-price-traction
Car & Driver tested this very idea back in 1999. They used a FWD and AWD Audi A6 and a RWD and AWD Mercedes E320 to test the idea. Their conclusion was just about the same as ours.

Quote:
Four-wheel drive helps get cars going. When it comes time to brake or change direction on low-traction surfaces, the extra mass of the driveline becomes more of a detriment. Folks who live in hilly places that get snow may need the climbing capability of four-wheel drive. If it snows a lot in those hilly places, they should probably invest in winter tires, too. Even flat-landers who happen to have steep driveways may wish to consider a four-wheel-driver.

Almost everyone else will most likely be better served by using winter tires. Acceleration takes longer, but in an emergency, the handling behavior and improved lateral grip of two-wheel drive and winter tires -- in the slippery stuff -- are the safer bets.

Winter tires boosted the rwd Benz's acceleration times more than they did the fwd Audi's, but in almost every other test, the inherently front-heavy Audis derived more benefit from the winter rubber than did the more evenly balanced Benzes. This finding certainly suggests that front-drive cars benefit from winter tires as much or more than rear-drivers do.


We did an informal test as our NH office on a private road next to it that was unplowed. It looked somewhat similar to the range at TON, with a sloped section, a flat section, and a cul de sac.

We had three cars:
- A Honda Accord with the stock Michelin All Seasons.
- A Honda Accord with Nokian RSI's.
- An Outback with Michelin All Seasons.

We rotated drivers and I told the other two "Don't say anything when we switch cars, just do the test and we will compare notes. We drove down the hill and stopped, drove around the cul de sac and stopped (on the flat), drove halfway up the hill and stopped, then started on the hill. There was about 6" of snow that had been partially packed down by other cars.

Unanimous conclusions.

1. The Accord with A/S was hopeless. It went straight when trying to turn in the cul de sac and could barely start moving after the hill stop. The owner went right out and bought snow tires the next day. He got Nokian WR's.

2. The Accord with RSI's [two generations back of their winter studless tires] was terrific. It stopped quickly with very little ABS interaction. It went around the cul de sac at reasonable speed and tracked very well. With traction control on it started OK on the hill but wouldn't generate much speed. Shutting off traction control worked a lot better.

3. The Outback was able to get moving from the hill stop a lot better than the A/S Accord and with less wheelspin than the Accord with TC off. But the stopping and turning were just as bad as the A/S. That one was mine and I got Nokian snows on it the next day.


What model Michelin AS's? How much tread on them? 6" of snow is not much to travel through.

 

[fdcg27]

There is no doubt that real winter tires are very good.
We had a set of Blizacks (sp?) on one of the Accords and they were amazing.
A really good AWD with really good ABS combined with decent weight distribution and a low center of gravity can be very good on the right AS tires, though.
Our Forester is a case in point.
Never had winters on it and never felt any need for them.
Are winter tires worth buying?
Yeah.
Are they a necessity?
No.

 

[Rand]

How can you be an informed driver if you have never used snow tires?

Thats like saying My moped is great, I dont need a motorcycle.
when you have never ridden a motorcycle.

you get so defensive and do the ostrich with its head in the sand imitation.

And every tire you put in that list is worse in snow and ice than most 15 year old winter tire designs.

If you had actually ever used snow tires maybe you would quit shouting "I'm a real driver I dont need winter tires" like its a man badge to use all seasons??

Also you can reply to 2 posts with out making 2 separate reply posts and post count whoring. if you need assistance feel free to pm me.

 

[rjundi]

NHHEMI lives in my area I believe. He is correct decent all-seasons , coupled to sensible driving, and incredible plowing/sanding locally make the going decent enough around here under poor conditions.

There is no need for winter tires locally. They definitely give you an edge in stopping and turning but the need does not come up often.

I have owned FWD/[censored] all-seasons,AWD with winter biased all-seasons and FWD with pure winters.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: NHHEMI

As I have repeatedly said I have absolutely no problems running quality AS tires in the NH winters. I am not saying NH winters are the worst because plenty of places get the same as we do and even more of it but we get bad winters so I see a lot of snow and ice on the roads is the point. My driving during those winter months includes towing and launching/pulling my duck boat in bad weather( i.e. snow ).

I don't know how many times I can say it. I don't have any problems running a quality AS tire. I don't mean I crawl along barely moving and that I slip and slide all the time but manage to stay on the road. I drive at a reasonable speed for the conditions( you do that with snows too )and I seldom if ever slip or slide. If I do lose traction it is briefly and only in the worst of conditions. I can easily regain control because I know how to drive and the tires I use can handle it.

I don't see any reason to spend the money on an extra set of rims and tires or have tires swapped for winter. I get a tire I know handles snow well and it covers me year round. Again, I just don't have any problems with them at all.



I'm going to contribute my 2-cents here on this subject. I've never run winter tires on the Expedition or the Explorer before it. I've had the Goodyear SilentArmor tires on it, followed by LTX M/S's and now M/S2's. The Michelin tires are extremely capable in snow, and with the heft of the Expedition at over 6,000lbs, an LSD and 4x4, I don't need winter tires.

That said, there isn't a doubt in my mind that if I were to put X-ice's or Blizzak's on it that it would be even more capable than it is now. It is the price tag associated with buying another $1,000 worth of tires and on top of that rims that has stopped me from doing that when I can get away with just using good all season tires. And I have.

Note the emphasis I've put on "get away" with here, because it isn't optimal. Snow tires would be optimal, I just don't NEED them to get by because of the vehicle and tire choice here. However I have no disillusions about the fact that I would be better served with dedicated snows. I KNOW I would be.

I think that's the disconnect in this discussion. Nobody is saying you NEED winter tires. They are saying your vehicle would perform better with them. It would. You simply cannot argue to the contrary while retaining any semblance of sanity in your post.

 

[Rand]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


Note the emphasis I've put on "get away" with here, because it isn't optimal. Snow tires would be optimal, I just don't NEED them to get by because of the vehicle and tire choice here. However I have no disillusions about the fact that I would be better served with dedicated snows. I KNOW I would be.

I think that's the disconnect in this discussion. Nobody is saying you NEED winter tires. They are saying your vehicle would perform better with them. It would. You simply cannot argue to the contrary while retaining any semblance of sanity in your post.


yep. thats what I said only much nicer.